The Holy Grail of Democracy

[jaguar]

wouldn't it be more trade in general, SKorea trades with a heck of a lot of people asides the US, the other factor is innovation and climates that encourage it.

[Undertoad]

The photo they are discussing is not my photo.

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar
In the end the people aren't fit to rule, they're stupid, shortsighted and immature, most are an utter waste of space.

Jefferson anticipated you:

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801.


Further, yes, the top echelons of society are self-cleansing -- but the traits that process selects for are not those which promote good governance.

[Catwoman]

Originally posted by DanaC
*Smiles* To some extent I agree with you Jaguar. There are times I hold my head in frustration as I watch the British tabloid press push the anti-europe or anti-asylum agenda and then next I know theres this huge public outcry and a wave of anti European sentiment or demands for tougher asylum laws. I dont know if tabloid papers play much of a role in the US but theyre a pain in the neck over here ....They do have a major effect on the voting public. There used to be a maxim that whoever the Sun supported was the likely next winner. ....and an anti European sentiment began to grow soon after certain media magnates staked their flags to the Anti campaigns. Its frustrating because it ends up with ordinary workingclass people fighting for the vested interests of the people that sit at the top.

That said.....I do believe that given a truly democratic system and more importantly access to that democratic system in some meaningful way most of us can be trusted most of the time not to be complete dipshits about it.

Nice to see a fellow Brit here in the Cellar , but I don't know that the British press are successful in 'pushing' any agenda. Some would argue that they merely reflect public opinion rather than dictate it. Euroscepticism has arisen out of ignorance and misplaced patriotism (not that I am an unquestioning advocator - far from it).

*****

Democracy by its nature is dependent on mass (and therefore proletarian) opinion - you cannot discount the validity of consensus without asking serious questions about the functionality of a democracy on any level - if 'the people' are too mis-informed/ignorant/stupid to make any decisions, why bother with tiresome plebicites in the first place? Lets let inbred patriarchal peers do the talking, eh?

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Undertoad
The photo they are discussing is not my photo.

Not in the context in which you present it, but the actual photo is indeed the same.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by sycamore


Please tell me that you're joking.

No, I'm not joking. I was looking at the entire history of the US. My point was that, absent slavery, America would be no worse off today. The South didn't exactly fall off the map after 1865. One could even argue that, in the long run, slavery actually depressed the long-term economic position of the South.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Beestie
No, I'm not joking. I was looking at the entire history of the US. My point was that, absent slavery, America would be no worse off today. The South didn't exactly fall off the map after 1865. One could even argue that, in the long run, slavery actually depressed the long-term economic position of the South.

Actually non-diversification of the manufacturing base is what depressed the south, and in some ways ended the civil war. Also not taking advantage of manufacturing innovation played a role as well.

[Undertoad]

My photo was just a crop of a closeup of the original famous earth at night image.

[DanaC]

Hey Catwoman! Wherebouts in our fine and sunny land do you call home? I's sittin' here in a li'l village in WestYorkshire.

Euroscepticism has arisen out of ignorance and misplaced patriotism

I agree....and I still think that is fuelled by a the press ( tabloid and broadsheet) who have been more interested in perpetuating that ignorance by muddying everybody's waters with stories based on fear of change thna they have in dispelling any of the myths they have created (especially the ones they created during the latter years of the conservative government)
Many of us get our information from the news media for this kind of issue. I havent read the proposed European constitution I relied upon the media outlet I hold in most trust to pick out the details and give it to me in a digested form. If the major media outlets that people have access to become skewed in an anti european direction that surely has an effect on many people?

The idea that people arent really swayed by what the papers say and that really the papers just reflect the views is fair enough, until you have someone quote a newstory back at you which you know to have been made up and then fed to the populace. I recall in particular the story of asylum seekers who had apparently killed and eaten a swan. ....I know that the story was made up because the paper that made it up admitted it had done so ...I also know that it and several other stories (about asylum seekers) were discussed at length in the House of Lords during a discussion about lies in the tabloid press.

That same story of Swan-butchering asylum seekers was then quoted back at me by a relative in a discussion in which my relative dismayed me with his overt anti asylumseeker attitude.

I have seen him go from having a fairly civilised view of asylum seekers to believing we have far too many. In fact I would say the whole country has taken something of a leap to the right on that issue. The press however was already there.

What greater "Holy Grail of Democracy" than The Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson? I offer you all a portion of that document, the listings of the grievances against King George of England:

...
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:...

Imagine that you live in a foreign country where the US has decided to intervene in the internal affairs of your nation. Where is the difference between George III of England and George II of the United States?

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Undertoad
My photo was just a crop of a closeup of the original famous earth at night image.

I stand corrected, UT. The photo on LD is a fake.

[Catwoman]

From sunny Bournemouth...

Yes I think I might have to concede this one. I was working under the assumption that the mass of hysterical ignorant fucks we call the public actually had some opinion-forming capability. But you're probably right.

Not that I excuse our 'propagandic press'. Of course, they exert influence (please say you don't read the Daily Mail). But to denationalise this conversation a little and widen the debate, how about a new topic?

Does the media (at large) reflect or dictate public opinion?

[Beestie]

Originally posted by Undertoad

My photo was just a crop of a closeup of the original famous earth at night image.

How'd they do that? Since earth isn't at night all at once, did they take a series of pictures at a pre-determined local time and then stitch them together? Are all localites in a given longitudinal slice assumed to have the same local time? Did they correct for diffraction? If the satellite is over the equator, then the northernmost and southernmost regions will appear dimmer if not adjusted. And who threw a blanket over Africa?

[Undertoad]

APOD entry

[jaguar]

Most public media is indeed shit. There are some better services available but you pay for it though the nose.

I feel I should clarify my earlier posts in this thread a little. What the US has at the moment is the worst possible outcome of the kind of thing I'm talking about, a group of individuals associated purely by wealth engaged in a giant circle jerk (consider who's involved, it's best not to visualize that). Ideally you have a group of wealthy and connected individuals lead by a communally decided agenda, not individual gain. Possible? Not sure.