Bill Cosby is fired up.

[blue]

Originally posted by Elspode


I'd really like to think that anyone capable of rational thought would have a hard time believing that at this point in history, but I suppose that denial is still a functional coping mechanism in today's world.

Wait...what? Are you serious? Entire generations (black, white and every other color) are being raised and encouraged to think of themselves as victims. And it ain't like it's gradually getting better.

Did I misinterpret your post?

[blue]

Richlevy: You mean because we took a ...bla.bla, bla bla bla

What's with the "we" shit? I didn't do a fucking thing and am getting tired of being blamed for it.

The system is fucked I'll grant you that, but I think blacks are getting screwed equally along with the rest of the have nots.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by richlevy

You mean because we took a whole race of people, kidnapped them, sold them into slavery, and purposely attempted to destroy any culture or sense of community they may have brought with them?

Not to split hairs or anything but I'm not sure "we" is the pronoun I would have chosen and secondly, as I understand it anyway, the slaves brought to America were rounded up and sold to slave traders by other African tribes (i.e., tribe A conquers tribe B and sells them to slave traders). Again, just clarifying and not contesting the point of your post.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Beestie
Originally posted by richlevy Not to split hairs or anything but I'm not sure "we" is the pronoun I would have chosen and secondly, as I understand it anyway, the slaves brought to America were rounded up and sold to slave traders by other African tribes (i.e., tribe A conquers tribe B and sells them to slave traders). Again, just clarifying and not contesting the point of your post.

I have heard the same thing about the African tribes. By the 'we', I meant that we as American citizens have some responsibility for America's past.

Almost every group in America has experienced discrimination. Most groups are or were able to overcome it. Early in the 20th century, medical schools had quotas for Jewish doctors. Now the Jewish doctor has a positive social image.

Asian americans also have built a reputation for academic excellance.

However, these groups were all willing immigrants. While some were treated brutally, they were still allowed to keep their cultural identities intact.

African Americans are the only immigrant group brought to this country against their will. This does not absolve anyone of personal responsibility, but it does put many of the problems in historical perspective and point to areas of culture and community which must still be rebuilt. I still remember the tape of Texaco executives laughing at the celebration of Kwanzaa, but that celebration demonstrates an attempt to manufacture culture.

If the idea of a manufactured holiday seems artificial, remember that Flag Day, Memorial Day, and Mother's Day were all created in this century to celebrate concepts. While Memorial Day is slightly tied to a historical date, the others were wholly manufactured.

Kwanzaa was an attempt to build a unifying tradition and sense of community. It has it's own set of principles and tries to reestablish what was destroyed.

The holiday, then will of necessity, be engaged as an ancient and living cultural tradition which reflects the best of African thought and practice in its reaffirmation of the dignity of the human person in community and culture, the well-being of family and community, the integrity of the environment and our kinship with it, and the rich resource and meaning of a people's culture.

Again, this is not a complete excuse, but the truth is that a whole class of people was victimized. Even refugess from genocide and holocaust can settle here among communities of their own. However, if enough people have lost all connection with their past, there is no community to make up that loss. Coupled with active pressures from outside, this can set up a pretty high barrier to stability.

People talk about conspiracies, but a lot of that is simply community. In some cultures, if someone wants to start a business, extended family and friends can loan the money to do this. This kind of bond is hard to rebuild when destroyed. And if enough of the middle class has been destroyed, there is noone left to lift up the working poor.

There are unique problems, and noone has come up with a good solution. The only change has been targeted drug laws which are turning larger and larger percentages of young males into felons.

So its not being paranoid when someone really is out to get you.

[Elspode]

Originally posted by blue
Did I misinterpret your post?

Uh...maybe? I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in order for people to continue to blame Whitey for their woes requires denial of their own responsibilities in whatever state of affairs in which they find their lives.

Example...if one chooses to act like a gangsta, one should probably take responsibility for the fact that an executive position with IBM is probably out of the question. That's not racism...that's realism.

No one forces anyone to posture, pose and generally behave in a deeply antisocial, "fuck you" manner. If one chooses to do so, one probably requires some measure of denial of reality in order to continue in that mode.

Further example: I would have loved to remain drunk and stoned for years to come, but I disliked the notion of living under bridges and dying at 35, so I didn't. I now have long hair, and I fully realize that this fact probably limits my potential for promotion and better income. It is a choice I make, and I own it. I don't blame society for not looking beyond my hairstyle and recognizing the person beyond it.

[lookout123]

Originally posted by richlevy


You mean because we took a whole race of people, kidnapped them, sold them into slavery, and purposely attempted to destroy any culture or sense of community they may have brought with them?

And because when we freed them we made promises for reparations in the form of land and equipment so that they could work themselves into our society but then withdrew the offer?

My European ancestors came here because they wanted to. While some may have deliberately assimiliated themselves, they did so by choice. Noone beat them for praying in their own religion, trying to educate themselves, or speaking in their native language.

Something similar was tried with native Americans, although it was a little more subtle since they were not technically slaves.

BTW, I do not think reparations are the way to go, since every single ex-slave is now dead, but let's acknowledge that the original problem is one that Americans deliberately created, and that we spent most of the 20th century in self denial over this and allowing segregation, de facto and de jure, to keep an entire class of people in a system of schools and jobs which were inferior.

Yes people need to meet us halfway, accept personal responsibility, and rebuild their own community ties and supports. But let's not kid ourselves - a big part of the problem is still with 'the system' and not with the people caught in it.

how many slaves did you kidnap and import, rich? unless i've forgotten i haven't done it even once.
yes, i know that is being sarcastic, but really, i myself, refuse to hold guilt over something done generations ago. it is very important that we be aware of the past, but NOT live in the past. the more we focus on the evil that was, the less we are able to move forward. the majority of americans at that time didn't own slaves and most of our ancestors came to america after slavery was abolished.

racial issues will never go away entirely because there will always be ignorant people, but as long as someone is willing to throw "you're great,great grandfather may have owned mine" then we can't really move forward. evil happened, move on. make sure it never happens again. that is what marriage counselors say to their clients - once something has been brought out into the open and dealt with, it is not beneficial to bring it back up every time there is a disagreement. if it is a good rule of thumb for intimate relationships, then it probably is for the larger society as well.

[lookout123]

back to cosby's original statements - i think he is trying to say that the black community fought hard to get to a certain point and now there are some individuals who are actually slipping backwards while blaming it on the white man.
in his last couple of speeches he has said that black americans fought to gain access to education, to be able to live where they want, to be able to work side by side with whites. what he is complaining about is the individual who wears their poverty, unwillingness to speak intelligible english, desire to stay in projects, inability to hold a solid job, and number of illegitimate children as a badge of honor - a "community" thing. am i missing the point? i think all he is saying is that these are problems that need to be fixed, not things to be proud of.

i think the same thing holds true across racial lines. too many people in america today are searching for a way to be a victim. we couldn't possibly be to blame for our own failures, could we? it must be the white man, the rich man, the republicans, the democrats, the ______'s fault, not mine - they are just holding me back. i think he makes a very valid point for us all.

[elSicomoro]

Slavery still exists today...it's just not as overt as it used to be.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by sycamore
Slavery still exists today...it's just not as overt as it used to be.

It's plenty overt in some parts of the world. Civilization is a pretty thin veneer.

[elSicomoro]

Well yeah, but I'm referring to the US in this case.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by lookout123
back to cosby's original statements - i think he is trying to say that the black community fought hard to get to a certain point and now there are some individuals who are actually slipping backwards while blaming it on the white man.
-edit-
i think all he is saying is that these are problems that need to be fixed, not things to be proud of.

i think the same thing holds true across racial lines. too many people in america today are searching for a way to be a victim.

In that I completely agree. First of all, disgust with the system or not, everyone eligible should vote. Just the act of going to the voting place and voting, even for Mickey Mouse, is an act of citizenship.

What I disagree with is conservatives, especially those born to wealth, who say all debts have been paid and anyone who has a problem is completely responsible for their situation.

That is bullshit. We as a nation have to confront our legacy with African Americans the same way we had to confront our legacy with Native Americans and Japanese Americans. Pretending that everything was fixed the moment the Civil Rights Act was signed is as silly as writing a $20,000 check out to every descendant of a slave.

In Judaism there is actually a prayer thanking G-d for not making us women . While we have never had one to thank G-d for making us black, a majority of people in the US would agree that all things being equal, having black skin at birth limits the range and height of opportunities.

Would Reagan have been president if he had been born as a black man? There are certainly opportunities for black conservatives, but who believes that there is no ceiling?

I'm in the middle on this one. I believe that reparations and treating adults like children is a terrible policy. I also believe that pretending that barriers do not exist and that the United States has discharged all obligations is delusional.

I agree with Cosby. If people are backsliding into self pity, then they need to get off their asses. The most anyone should hope for is to be met halfway.

[lookout123]

Originally posted by richlevy

What I disagree with is conservatives, especially those born to wealth, who say all debts have been paid and anyone who has a problem is completely responsible for their situation.

ok, you let me know what my debt is and i'll gladly pay it. i'm not sure how to do the math, so please help.

-i'm 30, so i was born after the civil rights movement had its peak.
- i'm a mix oc scottish, irish, swedish, and cherokee.
-i grew up in a lower middle class home in a union town. in the early 80's when the factories shut down my dad worked on a farm in exchange for meat. ( there were no jobs available since everyone worked for the factories before the layoffs) if my dad hadn't gotten his settlement from the malpractice suit for losing sight in one eye we wouldn't have had ANY money. that is probably worth a deduction somewhere.
-i got my first real job at 15 and have been working ever since
-i went in the USAF at 17 so i could go to college.
-i worked 3 jobs all the way through college because i didn't qualify for any other student aid due to my GI bill. i finished my bachelor's in 3 years.
-i was pissed after college that my bachelor's only qualified me for a $24k/year job, but i took it.
-i have busted my ass every day to make sure i stood out from the pack.
-as i explained due to an insurance foul up i paid for my wife's entire pregnancy out-of-pocket because i made more than $30k that year and didn't belong to a minority group.
-now i am a successful financial advisor with a nice (not exorbitant) income.

i don't list these things because i want sympathy or respect. i am probably no different than most of you - we all have challenges in life; that is what makes success so sweet when you achieve it. i got where i am because i was blessed with good parents who instilled in me a solid work ethic and i have worked hard to make sure that i am in the right place at the right time to capitalize on my experiences. Not because of the color of my skin. there have been many times where i didn't get jobs or material things that i wanted - but that is life, to blame it on someone (black, yellow, brown, purple people, rich/poor people... they are all just scapegoats) we are responsible for our own actions and decisions.

tell me - what exactly do i owe? and to who?

[lumberjim]

$300. payable to Lum Berjim. 10% penalty for payments recieved more than 16 days past the due date. we thank you in advance for your prompt payment, and if you have already mailed your payment, please ignore this invoice.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by sycamore
Slavery still exists today...it's just not as overt as it used to be.

In the US? horseshit.

Let's not belittle the atrocities of slavery by trying to redefine the word. There may be poor working conditions, there may be people trapped into a lifestyle of poverty because of few educational options, there may be people who have limited potential in life, there may even be people who have difficulty getting work from a bigoted manager.

But these things are not slavery. No one runs away from an employer and is arrested and forcibly returned to that employer as property by the Supreme Court. No one has their child taken by their employer and sold at auction to another employer.

There will always be cheap and ready labor available for menial work, and there will always be those who call it unjust and abusive. Let’s be real here. That’s a far cry from the institutionalized atrocity of slavery.

-sm

[elSicomoro]

From Merriam-Webster:

1 : DRUDGERY, TOIL
2 : submission to a dominating influence
3 a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another b : the practice of slaveholding

No, this isn't the 1850s anymore, but slavery still exists in other forms as I see it. And it even exists to a degree in the old-school way, e.g. people that come here that have to pay off their trafficker.

"The slave thinks he is released from bondage only to find a stronger set of chains."--Trent Reznor