Woman Arrested at Fahrenheit 9/11 Showing... - Page 2

hot_pastrami · 07-06-2004, 05:22 PM

Did the theater managament overreact in calling the police? From the story as presented, I'd say Yes. But it sounds an awful lot like she was resistant when initially asked to leave the lobby ("For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave"), and then it sounds like she continued handing out flyers in the parking lot, which is NOT public property, after being asked to stop. And she continued long enough for the theater management to phone police, and for the police to arrive.

If that's true, she was violating the rights of the theater owners by continuing the unwanted action on their property despite their having asked her to leave. She probably should have been charged with tresspassing.

This story is very one-sided, and I'd wager the theater management's version is decidedly different, and the truth somewhere in between.

Radar · 07-06-2004, 05:38 PM

She was originally standing outside the actual theater as people were exiting the movie. As people were leaving the theater she was giving them voter registration forms. The theater manager asked her to stop and while she was handing out the forms she tried to argue her case and explain that she wasn't handing out campaign literature, or endorsing any political party or candidate, and she wasn't causing a disturbance.

I don't know about you, but I attend a lot of movies and it takes about 5 minutes to clear a theater out completely. She most likely finished handing out the voter registration forms while they were still debating the issue and then she left without even being asked to leave by the manager. The manager had not asked her to leave, but had asked her to stop handing out voter registration forms.

She then left the theater and was in the parking lot on her way to her car. Some time after she left the theater but before she reached her car the cops arrived and motioned her to come over. Then she was arrested. She hadn't violated anyone's rights, created a disturbance, or violated any laws but she was arrested.

hot_pastrami · 07-06-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

She most likely finished handing out the voter registration forms while they were still debating the issue and then she left without even being asked to leave by the manager. The manager had not asked her to leave, but had asked her to stop handing out voter registration forms.

The article contradicts your assumptions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

They said she refused to leave and, for that, was cited for disorderly conduct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

"Everybody’s been doing it all over the place," Frank said. "For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave."

She WAS asked to leave, and refused. The theater management was within their rights regarding their property. I think they reacted poorly, and if I were in the woman's place I'd have likely done the same thing, but that doesn't make the behavior legal. She paid the consequences for disregarding the property owner's order to leave the premises.

Beestie · 07-06-2004, 05:57 PM

It really sounds, not unlike the film itself, that a lot of information is being withheld.

If it only takes 5 minutes to clear out a theatre then it only takes 30 seconds to walk to one's car yet the police were called and responded between the time she was asked to leave and when she actually left. No way that whole exchange was inside of a minute or two.

But, all that aside, no one has the right to a captive audience on private property without the permission of the owner. Heck, I bet you'd be pretty hacked if that same person showed up on your front porch after all your friends were leaving from a party and handed a flyers of one sort or another. Imagine how you would feel if she didn't leave until long after you called the police and gave you lip the whole time.

The article portrays the woman as the victim. Maybe its the other way around. The police sure thought so and while some police are jackboots, others just want to keep the peace.

jinx · 07-06-2004, 05:59 PM

She didn't refuse to leave, she just didn't leave as fast as someone thought she should have. I would love to know how long all of this took.

Radar · 07-06-2004, 06:02 PM

She DID leave the property owners premises and wasn't even forced to do so. Nobody escorted her out.

Quote:

Still in the theater lobby, as the crowds were making their way outside, Frank said she was approached by the theater manager and told she wasn’t allowed to be doing what she was doing because she was on private property.

She said she told the man that she was not handing out any campaign literature, and the group, including Frank’s husband, walked out together -- she contends she was not escorted out but was leaving regardless.

She said she continued outside with her husband and chatted with friends on the way to the car when troopers called her over to speak.

They took her license and information and she said she asked why she was not allowed to hand out the forms if she was outside on public property.

I'll have to look up the location of the theater, but I'm pretty sure it was at a mall somewhere as most theaters are nowadays. That means they probably had a police station within 60 seconds of them within the mall itself.

jinx · 07-06-2004, 06:09 PM

It's the one at the Wegman's strip mall in Downingtown right?

Radar · 07-06-2004, 06:17 PM

I don't know the area, so I couldn't answer. I was trying to figure that out from the story. I've found 8 Regal theaters in the Philly area, and I'm only assuming it's the Philly area since it's a Philly newspaper. Where is Easttown?

I've never been to Philadelphia.

hot_pastrami · 07-06-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

She DID leave the property owners premises and wasn't even forced to do so. Nobody escorted her out.

But she didn't leave when she was asked. She did eventually, in her own sweet time, but not right away. I find it interesting how your value system seems to be dynamic. You have spent a lot of keystrokes describing how one's physical property is sacred, and that any crime against one's property is a crime against the individual. Example:

Quote:

The simple and undeniable truth is that classic liberalism (libertarianism) holds property ownership (regardless of how the property was created) as the most sacred of all rights because property ownership is where our rights stem from.

Yet here, you support this woman... a person who tries to play the victim card while admitting that she didn't leave the property when she was asked to. I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm genuinely curious where the distinction is in your mind. Why is the theater's legitimately-owned property NOT sacred? Why the apparent inconsistency in your principles?

xoxoxoBruce · 07-06-2004, 07:02 PM

What if she had been handing out something else,....like Watchtowers? Does it make a difference that she was doing a "public service"?

SteveDallas · 07-06-2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

She DID leave the property owners premises

Unless the parking lot itself was donated by the local government or something equally unlikely, then the parking lot is private property, and she had actually NOT left the property while she was still in the parking lot.

jinx, as far as I can tell from the article, it's the one on West Chester Pike (Rt. 3) about halfway or so between Newtown Square and West Chester. It's a relatively large strip mall with the theater, a Genuardi's, Al E. Gator's, and a number of other smaller stores & restaurants. And the shopping center is off by itself--there are no residential or commercial buildings immediately bordering it.

jinx · 07-06-2004, 08:12 PM

Steve, I don't think so, here's a good link. It's the one in Downingtown. And there's a link to a picture if you scroll down.

As an aside...
It's weird how much this area has been in the news lately isn't it? Smarty, Nick Berg... other stuff I can't think of now...

richlevy · 07-06-2004, 08:23 PM

Why Can Shopping Malls Limit Free Speech

In summary, sometimes they can and sometimes they can't. The Supreme Court deferred to state law on the issue.

Quote:

Pruneyard was an invitation from the high court to the states to amend and interpret their own state constitutions to permit free speech in private forums if they so desired. But 23 years later, only six states have joined California in recognizing a state constitutional right to speak and assemble on private property: New Jersey, Colorado, Oregon, Massachusetts, Washington, and Pennsylvania (and several of them have waffled after doing so). Even the states conferring these broader speech rights do so only on two types of private property—shopping malls and non-public universities—and the only speech protected there is political speech.

Happy Monkey · 07-06-2004, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

Unless the parking lot itself was donated by the local government or something equally unlikely, then the parking lot is private property, and she had actually NOT left the property while she was still in the parking lot.
...
It's a relatively large strip mall with the theater, a Genuardi's, Al E. Gator's, and a number of other smaller stores & restaurants.\

If it's a strip mall, and the parking lot isn't exclusive to the theater, then the owner of the lot is whoever the theater leases the mall space from.

07-06-2004, 10:00 PM

"I was handing out the forms IN the theater, but I was not making any mention of party affiliation or candidates," she said. "I never said anything negative to anyone."

She said that on her way INTO the theater, she saw another woman who was handing out the forms but had run out.

"Everybody’s been doing it all over the place," Frank said. "For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave."

The woman was on private property, pure and simple. A property owner has every right to decide what takes place on his/her own property. I'm having a garden party. A man shows up with Micky Mouse fliers, possibly with/without my permission. The first man runs out of fliers and a second man arrives. I tell the second man that he does not have my permission to distribute Micky Mouse fliers on my property and ask him to leave. Instead, this man enters my garden, distributes fliers against my permission, and then walks back to his car. The police arrive and the man plays innocent: "Well, here I am at my car, ossifer. And besides, everyone else was doing it!" Is the man innocent? NO! Have my rights as an owner of private property been disregarded? YES! I am highly surprised that a Libertarian such as Radar would suddenly welcome government intervention over the rights of a property owner in this instance. The woman must have been handing out Libertarian party propaganda along with her voter registration forms.

07-06-2004, 05:22 PM	#16
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	Did the theater managament overreact in calling the police? From the story as presented, I'd say Yes. But it sounds an awful lot like she was resistant when initially asked to leave the lobby ("For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave"), and then it sounds like she continued handing out flyers in the parking lot, which is NOT public property, after being asked to stop. And she continued long enough for the theater management to phone police, and for the police to arrive. If that's true, she was violating the rights of the theater owners by continuing the unwanted action on their property despite their having asked her to leave. She probably should have been charged with tresspassing. This story is very one-sided, and I'd wager the theater management's version is decidedly different, and the truth somewhere in between. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

07-06-2004, 05:38 PM	#17
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	She was originally standing outside the actual theater as people were exiting the movie. As people were leaving the theater she was giving them voter registration forms. The theater manager asked her to stop and while she was handing out the forms she tried to argue her case and explain that she wasn't handing out campaign literature, or endorsing any political party or candidate, and she wasn't causing a disturbance. I don't know about you, but I attend a lot of movies and it takes about 5 minutes to clear a theater out completely. She most likely finished handing out the voter registration forms while they were still debating the issue and then she left without even being asked to leave by the manager. The manager had not asked her to leave, but had asked her to stop handing out voter registration forms. She then left the theater and was in the parking lot on her way to her car. Some time after she left the theater but before she reached her car the cops arrived and motioned her to come over. Then she was arrested. She hadn't violated anyone's rights, created a disturbance, or violated any laws but she was arrested. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

07-06-2004, 05:57 PM	#19
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	It really sounds, not unlike the film itself, that a lot of information is being withheld. If it only takes 5 minutes to clear out a theatre then it only takes 30 seconds to walk to one's car yet the police were called and responded between the time she was asked to leave and when she actually left. No way that whole exchange was inside of a minute or two. But, all that aside, no one has the right to a captive audience on private property without the permission of the owner. Heck, I bet you'd be pretty hacked if that same person showed up on your front porch after all your friends were leaving from a party and handed a flyers of one sort or another. Imagine how you would feel if she didn't leave until long after you called the police and gave you lip the whole time. The article portrays the woman as the victim. Maybe its the other way around. The police sure thought so and while some police are jackboots, others just want to keep the peace. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

07-06-2004, 05:59 PM	#20
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	She didn't refuse to leave, she just didn't leave as fast as someone thought she should have. I would love to know how long all of this took. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

07-06-2004, 06:09 PM	#22
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	It's the one at the Wegman's strip mall in Downingtown right? __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

07-06-2004, 06:17 PM	#23
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I don't know the area, so I couldn't answer. I was trying to figure that out from the story. I've found 8 Regal theaters in the Philly area, and I'm only assuming it's the Philly area since it's a Philly newspaper. Where is Easttown? I've never been to Philadelphia. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

07-06-2004, 07:02 PM	#25
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	What if she had been handing out something else,....like Watchtowers? Does it make a difference that she was doing a "public service"? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-06-2004, 08:12 PM	#27
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Steve, I don't think so, here's a good link. It's the one in Downingtown. And there's a link to a picture if you scroll down. As an aside... It's weird how much this area has been in the news lately isn't it? Smarty, Nick Berg... other stuff I can't think of now... __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

07-06-2004, 10:00 PM	#30
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	"I was handing out the forms IN the theater, but I was not making any mention of party affiliation or candidates," she said. "I never said anything negative to anyone." She said that on her way INTO the theater, she saw another woman who was handing out the forms but had run out. "Everybody’s been doing it all over the place," Frank said. "For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave." The woman was on private property, pure and simple. A property owner has every right to decide what takes place on his/her own property. I'm having a garden party. A man shows up with Micky Mouse fliers, possibly with/without my permission. The first man runs out of fliers and a second man arrives. I tell the second man that he does not have my permission to distribute Micky Mouse fliers on my property and ask him to leave. Instead, this man enters my garden, distributes fliers against my permission, and then walks back to his car. The police arrive and the man plays innocent: "Well, here I am at my car, ossifer. And besides, everyone else was doing it!" Is the man innocent? NO! Have my rights as an owner of private property been disregarded? YES! I am highly surprised that a Libertarian such as Radar would suddenly welcome government intervention over the rights of a property owner in this instance. The woman must have been handing out Libertarian party propaganda along with her voter registration forms.

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