Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

Originally Posted by Brianna

With a two-year degree (and the State will pay for it!) you can start out making 50K--but you gotta be willing to wear the scrubs. You gotta be willing to work weekends and nights. You gotta be willing to put up with a lot of BS and you've gotta believe in the divinity of doctors----just kidding!

...just kidding about the divinity of doctors thing. Everything else stands.

Wow! What's the program? I want to call up my voc-rehab counselor and see if it's something I might be able to do given my current limitations. Does the job command that much money for an inexperienced grad anywhere? Please give more details.

Originally Posted by Lookout123

Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world..

OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood." If you disagree with the things I wrote in my earlier post, simply say so and then give the facts to back up your opinion. The only people who feel that it's acceptable to make a condescending statement which turns a debate into one of personalities are politicians, and look at how much respect we have for all of THEM.

Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year. Meanwhile just outside the Bronx in Mount Vernon there is a public school where 97% of the students who attend are black. One out of ten of these students live in a homeless shelter. Visit that school's library and try to find books about or by Langston Hughes, the great black poet. Nor are there books about Rosa Parks, Josephine Baker, or Leontyne Price or any other famous black Americans. The newest encyclopedia in the library dates from 1991 and has the volumes "b" and "r" missing. There is no computer or card catalog in the library and almost all the books date from the 50's and 60's when the student body was mostly white. You want to tell me which child is going to score higher on his SAT's (if he even takes them)? The one from the private $26,000/yr school or the child who attended the one in Mount Vernon? These are FACTS* and have nothing to do with the "cult of victimhood."

Here's another fact: 44 MILLION Americans, eight out of ten of them in working families, are uninsured and cannot get even the most basic medical care from the "best system of medical care in the world." What has happened to the "American dream" for those 44 million Americans?

Fact: The gap between the rich and the poor in this country has become greater than at any time in the past 50 years. We have the worst inequality that way of ANY OTHER Western nation. The gap between the top 20% in income and the lower 20% has increased from 30 fold in 1960 to 75 fold today. Put this together with the steady dismanteling of public services like schools and health care and tuition assistance for higher education and this gap becomes an obscenity. Is this the realizatiion of the "American dream"?

I look around my country today and I sometimes feel something very close to despair. We are loosing something very precious and something that we should all cherish deeply - democracy and the "great American experiment" in order to satisfy the desires of the corporate world and a wealthy minority for ever more money and ever higher profits, be they deserved or not.

I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.

*The facts I cite in this post can be found here:http://www.inequality.org/moyerstranscript.pdf

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by marichiko

OK, I'm calling you on that one, Lookout. First of all it is a non sequiter to reply to a statement that the quality of public education is going down in this country by saying that the person making this judgement has "fallen prey to the cult of victimhood."

I am a realist, Lookout. Fate has forced me to open my eyes and see things that I never noticed back in my snug little middle class world while you are still singing yourself to sleep at night with the fairy tales the power brokers want us all to believe. I am a victim only in the sense that anyone who recieves an unlucky blow from fate is a victim. But I will be god damned if I allow my voice to be silenced by some foolish comment by a member of the complacent middle class I once belonged to. I'll see you in hell first before I ever roll over with my paws up and whine that I'm a helpless victim. Nice try.

OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.
and if you want to convince yourself that i live in some sheltered little world immune to the dark scary world you live in i don't know what else to tell you. you have no clue on my life experiences so you may want to be careful on that, it hasn't been all roses and butterfly kisses, but it has been interesting so i wouldn't trade it for the world.
I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.
as far as seeing me in hell? thanks but i'll pass, i don't think we believe in the same hell anyway.
anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.

Originally Posted by lookout123

OK Mari, let's take a deep breath on this one. i went back and reread my post. i didn't type anything that i believe is condescending but if you believe that was my intention - i apologize. i didn't insult you - i merely responded to your points. and if you reread - i agree with you that the public education system sucks.

I made no attempt to silence your voice - i welcome any viewpoint in a discussion. disagreeing with you does not equate to silencing you.

anyway - the difference between a realists and the victimized is that a realist sees the pitfalls and injustices of the world but marches on anyway, realizing that though the world affects them, the results may be outside of their control, their actions are entirely within their control.
a victim sees the same injustices and wanders through life pointing out how things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is.

It is condescending to state "you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world." Calling someone a "victim" is a fighting word in my part of the world, and I bet it is in yours, as well. When you say someone is playing out a part in a "cult of victimhood" and that negativity is holding them down, you invalidate that person's statements as mere trivia - artifacts of an emotional mentality, rather than as observations made by the intellect. In this manner, you call upon others to dismiss my words and, in effect, silence me.

I realize that your overt intent was not to be mean spirited. However, you should realize the implications of your final sentences.

There is a very fine line to draw between realism and victimhood. I think that there are more instances than we care to believe when the reality IS that "things are unfair and if only_________ then they would be doing better, but ________stood in their way and there is really nothing they can do about it because the unfair system is what it is."

In my opinion the victim makes this statement and then lies down and lets the tanks roll over him. The fighter may make this statement, but stands up anyway and at least maybe shoots out one tank before being rolled over by the rest. There are some truths that we would all rather not face and it is easier to deny them rather than face them; harder to realize them and give in to despair; and most difficult of all to stand up to them knowing that defeat is almost a certainty, but fighting on despite this.

Our country is in a state of crisis and a few people are finally beginning to awaken to this fact. I am pretty cynical about the possibility of turning things around, but I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

[Trilby]

[quote=marichiko]Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.


Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.

Too bad.

[quote=Brianna]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Here's some facts for you: In New York City tuition at private schools, K-12, has reached $26,000 a year.


Mari--I went to fancy private schools--it didn't cost my parents 26,000/year. Of course, I'm not in NYC either. My rent isn't anywhere near NYC rents, either--you are comparing apples to oranges if you compare NYC to the other parts of the country. It's difficult for some people, especially well-educated people, to take responsibility for their lives. They keep thinking someone else should be doing for them.

Too bad.

"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by marichiko

"don't bother. I'm psychic." Good.

Then I accept your apology. You're welcome.

[Trilby]

Oh, and Mari--looks at the Saudi's--they don't PRODUCE anything--they've a natural, limited reserve of oil that is the end-all, be-all of their economy. That's IT. Nothing is "made in Saudi Arabia" and they do just fine, don't they? They lucked into an economy. Does that make them any less ambitious than anyone else? You tell me.

[jaguar]

He came to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cynical a forum to ask this question

That was a self-fulfilling statement if I ever saw one.

many do it not because they are downtrodden people, as you seem to think, but because it is a cost effective form of housing.

And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.

they get to keep their offices because too many people take the defeatist attitude that you can't change anything so why try.

Voting tweedle dum or tweedly dee this time? Nothing will change until fiat currency collapses under the weight of stupidly populist policies from both parties.

The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.

Hm. I wonder what side of the gap you will be on, Jag. I mean, most people like to think of themselves as at least able to support their families--even if they do live in those really tacky trailer parks...right? Have you ever had a friend who lived in a trailer park? I've gone to many in my professional life and I have a cousin who lives in one. They are amazingly regular-type people. Some really do live there by choice. Not everyone is a snob.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.

i drive older vehicles even though i have the ability to buy new and more upscale. i don't place my value in shiny new cars. the new smell goes away and then what do you have, but another used car.

and mobile homes? my parents and many like them sold their very nice stick-built homes to live in mobile homes because they are functional and free up a lot of money.

[Bullitt]

If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.
Didin't like the author much, kind of a whiner/self rightous liberal.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.

I agree--great book. Definitely worth the read.

[Radar]

You have to move to India, China, or Mexico if you want to live the American dream. But seriously though there's a good book on this subject. It was written in about 1979 but it's still very apt today.

It's called, "Restoring the American Dream" by Robert J. Ringer

[lookout123]

The "American Dream" is what you make it. it isn't the same for everyone. everyone dreams of a better life for themselves, some people help themselves to achieve it.

[jaguar]

There's a touch of difference between selling your nice house and spending your retirement moving around to living in a trailor park, let's be straight here, you're dodging and weaving to avoid the point. Given the choice, somewhere between the vast majority and nearly everyone would prefer to live in a house than a trailor park.

Brianna: Not entirely sure what your point is. I'm sure some are perfectly nice people, I don't see how that impacts on my argument either, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.