You Never Know Someone - Page 2

garnet · 12-10-2004, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Or, knowing humanity in general, maybe its completely normal and we're all doing our best to supress it 24/7.

I'd agree with that. I think we've all felt a strong urge to kill someone at one time or another, but hey, you gotta suck it up and let it go. If you don't have the ability to do that, then you've got a problem.

dar512 · 12-10-2004, 09:16 AM

Wolf, I could not do for one day the stuff you do day in and day out.

I really hope you are keeping a journal of all these stories you have to tell. I seriously think you should put some of this stuff together and write a book.

warch · 12-10-2004, 10:15 AM

This guy was not a responsible gun owner. I guess the sport of the shooting range wasnt enough.

Kitsune · 12-10-2004, 10:24 AM

This guy was not a responsible gun owner.

This guy illegally obtained the gun by lying on his application that he had never been prescribed or was currently taking drugs for a psychological condition.

dar512 · 12-10-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

This guy illegally obtained the gun by lying on his application that he had never been prescribed or was currently taking drugs for a psychological condition.

This guy punches people out and eventually kills people. Who could've guessed he would lie?

garnet · 12-10-2004, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

This guy was not a responsible gun owner.

This guy illegally obtained the gun by lying on his application that he had never been prescribed or was currently taking drugs for a psychological condition.

Hadn't he been in trouble with the law before he bought the gun? Did they do a background check, and if so, why didn't this stuff show up? If someone lies on an application to get a gun and are found out, is there any sort of "punishment" or are they just allowed to walk away scott-free and look for a gun somewhere else?

Kitsune · 12-10-2004, 10:47 AM

No idea. Even if you have a felony conviction, there is nothing preventing you from going to a gun show and picking up a handgun or buying one off of a private seller.

I think the background check process could use quite a lot of improvement.

Troubleshooter · 12-10-2004, 11:05 AM

As far as killling people goes, it's the same as any other decision. It's a simple value judgement. What do I gain by doing this or not doing this. Even crazy people use the same mechanics, it's just there motivational structure is off. Civilization is what makes people behave, as in being able to interact in your group environment in a way that doesn't put other people in the same balancing act of deciding what is to be gained by killing you or not killing you.

The lizard brain drives, the mammalian brain is the road, and the human brain drives (usually).

In regards to the background check, it has yet to be shown to work in its current state, also some states require the check at gun shows as well.

jinx · 12-10-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The lizard brain drives, the mammalian brain is the road, and the human brain drives (usually).

You lost me here... what do you mean?

wolf · 12-10-2004, 11:44 AM

First off, there are plenty of people who kill people who aren't crazy. Gang members, armed robbers, etc. They are criminals. They are not crazy. Yes, you like to think they are different from you, but in essence, they aren't. The regard for human life is not automatic. Neither is self control. But the lack of either is a matter of personality, not insanity. If you really had to be crazy to kill someone, insanity defenses would work more than 1% of the time.

The news articles were unclear as to the extent of mental health treatment history the guy had.

A bit about firearms law ...

If you are buying a handgun ... you have to fill out the state and federal paperwork to do so.

The "gun show loophole" doesn't exist in the way that the Brady Bunch would like you to believe. You ARE allowed to make a transfer of a long arm between private citizens. Anything else requires an FFL dealer in the middle ... you pay him or her a fee, usually around $25, for running the background check and filing the paperwork.

State laws also vary related to mental health history ... most states will deny a firearms purchase to anyone who has been involuntarily committed to a hospital. (In Florida, that means "Baker Acted". My jurisdiction calls it a 302. California's is a 5150 ... those are the only ones I know offhand). Usually folks who have sought voluntary treatment (which is the great majority) don't go into the no-buy database.

I seem to recall the fed paperwork asking if I were an American Citizen or a habitual drunkard. Nothing asked me to indicate if I were crazy, suicidal, homicidal, or just plain pissed off.

Edit to add: Yes, there are criminal charges for falsely filling out the forms. More of the slap on the wrist variety, but they are federal ... I was once in a gun store when someone tried to do this. It was very interesting to watch. The cops got called and were already familiar with the rocket scientists involved (there was more than one visit to the gunstore on this one).

warch · 12-10-2004, 02:53 PM

from the article:

Quote:

Police reports show violence wasn't out of character for Justin Cudar.

I wonder if any of his previous police recorded episodes of violence, the punch, attempted run down, showed up on a firearms background check, or would matter.

I know they are beloved....but I hate how ample handguns have become.

jinx · 12-10-2004, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warch

I know they are beloved....but I hate how ample handguns have become.

Maybe its just my perception because I grew up with guns laying around all over the house, barn, vehicles etc... but I don't think they are any more ample now than they've ever been.

warch · 12-10-2004, 03:53 PM

Must just be my perception. Seems to me I hear more about hand gun incidents and availability.

lookout123 · 12-10-2004, 04:08 PM

i haven't pulled any statistics or anything, but maybe we are hearing more about it because, as a society, we have become more sensitive to the issue.

it seems like once upon a time if there was an accidental shooting, the response was that "Uncle billy died because he was screwing around with his gun and it accidentally went off."

now it seems like the thought process is more in the lines of "uncle billy was killed by his gun going off. if we had better gun laws, he wouldn't have had that unsafe gun in his hands. who can we sue?"

it also seems like kids today play with guns because they are almost taboo. when i was a kid, my dad had his rifles stored in the closet. he taught me how to clean and care for them, but he also let me fire them and see the destruction they caused. even the church camp i went to let us target shoot with .22's. our experience with guns wasn't limited to tv.

today most parents don't like their kids exhibiting violent behavior like playing with toy guns and they wouldn't think of letting their children fire real guns. so the kids grow up without learning the proper respect a gun deserves until they are a teenager with their invincibility mode in full effect and start playing with a gun at someone's house. then when someone ends up dead it must be the gun maker's fault.

just recently in phoenix a 15 yr old boy shot himself in the head. he was playing russian roullette to impress his g/friend. stupid . it was a glock.REALLY EFFING STUPID. of course it was all over the news with the toothless neighbor saying that the problem lies with people owning guns. i happen to think that the problem lies with people being A) stupid and B) unfamiliar with guns.

*rant over*

warch · 12-10-2004, 04:20 PM

What I notice is...Oh yeah, another armed kid went off in school. Oh yeah, some dude just went postal. Some girl was killed in driveby crossfire. Oh yeah, dont make me put a cap in yo ass. Just everyday stuff anymore. No real shock, just part of the territory. And apparently glocks are very sexy.

12-10-2004, 11:05 AM	#23
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	As far as killling people goes, it's the same as any other decision. It's a simple value judgement. What do I gain by doing this or not doing this. Even crazy people use the same mechanics, it's just there motivational structure is off. Civilization is what makes people behave, as in being able to interact in your group environment in a way that doesn't put other people in the same balancing act of deciding what is to be gained by killing you or not killing you. The lizard brain drives, the mammalian brain is the road, and the human brain drives (usually). In regards to the background check, it has yet to be shown to work in its current state, also some states require the check at gun shows as well. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

12-10-2004, 11:44 AM	#25
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	First off, there are plenty of people who kill people who aren't crazy. Gang members, armed robbers, etc. They are criminals. They are not crazy. Yes, you like to think they are different from you, but in essence, they aren't. The regard for human life is not automatic. Neither is self control. But the lack of either is a matter of personality, not insanity. If you really had to be crazy to kill someone, insanity defenses would work more than 1% of the time. The news articles were unclear as to the extent of mental health treatment history the guy had. A bit about firearms law ... If you are buying a handgun ... you have to fill out the state and federal paperwork to do so. The "gun show loophole" doesn't exist in the way that the Brady Bunch would like you to believe. You ARE allowed to make a transfer of a long arm between private citizens. Anything else requires an FFL dealer in the middle ... you pay him or her a fee, usually around $25, for running the background check and filing the paperwork. State laws also vary related to mental health history ... most states will deny a firearms purchase to anyone who has been involuntarily committed to a hospital. (In Florida, that means "Baker Acted". My jurisdiction calls it a 302. California's is a 5150 ... those are the only ones I know offhand). Usually folks who have sought voluntary treatment (which is the great majority) don't go into the no-buy database. I seem to recall the fed paperwork asking if I were an American Citizen or a habitual drunkard. Nothing asked me to indicate if I were crazy, suicidal, homicidal, or just plain pissed off. Edit to add: Yes, there are criminal charges for falsely filling out the forms. More of the slap on the wrist variety, but they are federal ... I was once in a gun store when someone tried to do this. It was very interesting to watch. The cops got called and were already familiar with the rocket scientists involved (there was more than one visit to the gunstore on this one). __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis Last edited by wolf; 12-10-2004 at 11:47 AM.

12-10-2004, 04:08 PM	#29
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	i haven't pulled any statistics or anything, but maybe we are hearing more about it because, as a society, we have become more sensitive to the issue. it seems like once upon a time if there was an accidental shooting, the response was that "Uncle billy died because he was screwing around with his gun and it accidentally went off." now it seems like the thought process is more in the lines of "uncle billy was killed by his gun going off. if we had better gun laws, he wouldn't have had that unsafe gun in his hands. who can we sue?" it also seems like kids today play with guns because they are almost taboo. when i was a kid, my dad had his rifles stored in the closet. he taught me how to clean and care for them, but he also let me fire them and see the destruction they caused. even the church camp i went to let us target shoot with .22's. our experience with guns wasn't limited to tv. today most parents don't like their kids exhibiting violent behavior like playing with toy guns and they wouldn't think of letting their children fire real guns. so the kids grow up without learning the proper respect a gun deserves until they are a teenager with their invincibility mode in full effect and start playing with a gun at someone's house. then when someone ends up dead it must be the gun maker's fault. just recently in phoenix a 15 yr old boy shot himself in the head. he was playing russian roullette to impress his g/friend. stupid . it was a glock.REALLY EFFING STUPID. of course it was all over the news with the toothless neighbor saying that the problem lies with people owning guns. i happen to think that the problem lies with people being A) stupid and B) unfamiliar with guns. rant over __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

12-10-2004, 09:16 AM	#17
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	Wolf, I could not do for one day the stuff you do day in and day out. I really hope you are keeping a journal of all these stories you have to tell. I seriously think you should put some of this stuff together and write a book.

12-10-2004, 10:15 AM	#18
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	This guy was not a responsible gun owner. I guess the sport of the shooting range wasnt enough.

12-10-2004, 10:24 AM	#19
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	This guy was not a responsible gun owner. This guy illegally obtained the gun by lying on his application that he had never been prescribed or was currently taking drugs for a psychological condition.

12-10-2004, 10:47 AM	#22
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	No idea. Even if you have a felony conviction, there is nothing preventing you from going to a gun show and picking up a handgun or buying one off of a private seller. I think the background check process could use quite a lot of improvement.

12-10-2004, 03:53 PM	#28
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Must just be my perception. Seems to me I hear more about hand gun incidents and availability.

12-10-2004, 04:20 PM	#30
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	What I notice is...Oh yeah, another armed kid went off in school. Oh yeah, some dude just went postal. Some girl was killed in driveby crossfire. Oh yeah, dont make me put a cap in yo ass. Just everyday stuff anymore. No real shock, just part of the territory. And apparently glocks are very sexy.

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