DIY Illegal Immigration, The "safe" way

[busterb]

Found this link in another thread. Guess all goverments from south of border get in act. here

[lookout123]

i understand what you are saying cowhead, but if we are going to have a law on the books then it should be enforced.

if illegal immigration laws were properly enforced we would be able to open up the numbers of legal immigrants allowed. immigrants who followed the rules should get the shot, rather than people that sneak back and forth.

and your former co-worker created a new US citizen. an individual that may never work a day in their life inside the US, but can come back and take full advantage of all US public aid programs, including social security when the time comes.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I doubt you can solve this one even with the military on the border.

Of course not. One never solves a problem by curing the symptoms. Reasons for the problem were demonstrated by a famous Cancun Conference that prematurely broke up three days early.

They need jobs. We have too much jobs. Why? For example, we insist on subsidizing the sugar industry by 50% so they will keep sugar jobs in this country. Wrong. Sugar is better grown where people need these jobs and where the employees cost less. Stop subsidizing sugar by 50%. Economics then says those sugar jobs go to where the illegal immigrants live. Then they have no reason to become illegal immigrants.

Again I refer to the Cancun Conference on agriculture. America and France were (again) world leaders against a free market industry. So adversarial that literally the entire world walked out. It caused further tensions of other world conferences and yet was little discussed in America.

You want to massively reduce illegal immigration? Then stop protecting industries who must then hire illegals. But we don't associate both government protection of industries and illegal immigration as a common problem. Instead we expect the courts, law enforcement, and at one point even the military cure a symptom by using force. The idea that more force will solve problems was the big joke in Tim Allen's Home Improvement. Anyone advocating more force to solve immigration is just as foolish. Instead we should be fixing the problem. Again that means top management. The people who run government - whether they strongly oppose illegal immigration or not - create the problem when they (for example) subsidize US Sugar so heavily.

Something like 50% of that sugar on your table is paid for by government subsidy. We need more (illegal) Mexicans to grow and harvest that sugar - or harvest those mushrooms. That sugar is better grown where people need the jobs. But it will not happen when government so massively subsidized whole industries - especially sugar.

Those who fear free trade only make illegal immigration necessary.

[lookout123]

illegal immigration is a problem because it is very profitable. companies hire illegals, often knowingly, because they can them so much less. illegals come over because they can make more money than in their own country and there are more benefits to be had.

enforce the laws that exist to take the profit out of it. Look at wal-mart. in 2003/2004 they were found to have employed hundreds of illegals. they effectively received a slap on the wrist. if however, that company had been made to feel real pain, they and others might think twice before breaking employment laws.

when an illegal is found to have used false ID to gain employment, make it a painful experience for them.

the companies and the illegals have no fear because they know that the PC police will prevent any major action against them.

[OnyxCougar]

Meantime, people like my best friends fiancee, who really wants to come to America and become a citizen and work can't. He's from Croatia. So he's screwed. He can't even buy a plane ticket to the US until he's got a visa in his hand. He went to try to buy a ticket to Mexico, and they said no, because it's easy to get into the US from Mexico. The Croat government said this.

So he's screwed either way.

[warch]

if however, that company had been made to feel real pain, they and others might think twice before breaking employment laws.

And these employment laws are flawed and some politicians, who you call too PC, Bush included!, are trying to change them to better suit reality. Bush knows the Texas economy. He wants to lessen risk for corporations and investors. This economy is rooted in Braceros. To undo that, undoes much more that citizens are willing to endure. It is not possible with existing laws, even if inforced with deadly power.

And then, when small businesses fold, when good old fashioned all American rural towns built around agriculture further hurry to die, then the price of cheap shit can only remain cheap by ceasing all US manufacture and there is no affordable new housing or real estate investment... there. that'll show those damn wetbacks. That will keep America strong. Bah.

So you deal with who is here and who you know will come, track them better, try to document them as they come, still make use of their arms, maybe even increase that, collect their taxes, school their kids, and help them avoid the emergency room.

[lookout123]

warch, i think you are misunderstanding. you are saying nearly the same thing i am. i support increased legal immigration. but that does nothing to slow down the illegals. stricter enforcement of immigration laws is necessary. and comparing agricultural workers to those employed by major retail corporations isn't exactly fair.

[warch]

Nope. You are oversimplifying it. Of course its fair to compare workers. Youre picking beets (ultimately for ConAgra), or gutting chicken (for Tyson and for Albertsons), or nailing roofs (building that new Best Buy headquarters), or changing tires, or stocking Walmart, or cleaning the Marriott...WTF?
I'm saying there is no way to "slow down the illegals" without crippling the economy. And no one will risk that. There exists, right this minute, a shortage of workers willing and able to do the needed shitty jobs. Go stand at the day labor pick up at 5:00 AM.
The choices are amnesty (make those here legal citizens....rubs many the wrong way) and/or guestworkers (make them legally able to work, temporarally as resident alliens...this of course has a host of historic problems). Thats the reality. Pick your track. Stricter enforcement of existing laws impacts nothing really. The laws need to change to deal with reality.

[lookout123]

my understanding is that many of the migrant agricultural workers are just that, migrant. they come in, do the job, then leave. i can understand that a little more.

but what you are saying is the same thing i am saying - we can put whatever programs, quotas, whatever you want to call it and bring the workers in, but i only support increasing those numbers if we are going to start doing something about those that chuck the system, walk across the border and start working illegally. what i don't like about bush's proposal has nothing to do with the amnesty vs. non-amnesty BS, it is the fact that there is nothing but lip service about future enforcement. if the gov't is only going to enforce the new system the way they do the old, it is pointless.

BTW, please tell me you aren't one of the people that cries about "our cheeseburgers will cost $25 if we don't have illegals working here". that is utter BS.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

There is no way the US can possibly absorb the population of Mexico. I think everyone understands this. Even if we could, then it would be the people of Central America, then South America, etc.

Illegals come up here because they can find work. The real culprits are American employers taking advantage of this and offering the illegals lower wages than what they would pay American workers and hiring them under the table. This illegal employment practice should be stopped.

Why? Because illegals end up using our resources without ever having paid for them through payroll and income taxes. An illegal can still be treated in an emergency room in this country, his children can still attend our schools, etc.

A "Bracero" program should be put in place where people who wish to work are issued temporary permits to do so. Their wages should be taxed just like the wages of anyone else. Entities who try to hire braceros under the table and evade responsibility for collecting payroll taxes from them should be severely penalized.

This might result in slightly higher prices for some items, but I agree that burgers or bags of sugar will not suddenly shoot up to $25.00 each as a result, nor will southwestern communities suddenly morph into ghost towns. Minor price increases would be more than offset by lower costs of patrolling the border. It is much easier to crack down on 100 employers, for example, then it is 100,000 illegals. In addition, since they will be paying taxes, foreign laborers will be paying for the services they now get for free.

The tide of illegals is a symptom. As long as we don't treat the cause, the problem will continue.

I am not adverse to providing water for people, however. There is such as thing as human decency. We should be clever enough to solve this problem without callously allowing people to die in our deserts.

[OnyxCougar]

Well, I am under the opinion that if you are in a country illegally, then that country has no obligation to you to provide anything. You CHOSE to go to that country illegally, knowing it was illegal.

That's just like the thief who breaks in to your house, falls and breaks a leg and then sues you for damages.

They rolled they dice and they took they chances.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Well, I am under the opinion that if you are in a country illegally, then that country has no obligation to you to provide anything. You CHOSE to go to that country illegally, knowing it was illegal.

That's just like the thief who breaks in to your house, falls and breaks a leg and then sues you for damages.

They rolled they dice and they took they chances.

I said water, not a million dollars. It's a minor point, anyhow.

[OnyxCougar]

well, I mean water, too. It pisses me off that people who are here illegally want to be educated, housed, clothed, fed and employed when they have no right to those services in this country.

Don't give them any damn water. I say create that 100 yard "no man's land" and light it up 24/7, have border patrol stationed across the whole freaking thing, and shoot anything that moves in that 100 yard area.

But that may be an unpopular opinion.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

But that may be an unpopular opinion.

Not with me.

I happen to think that people who get caught here as illegal aliens should get tagged in some way, and shipped home. As a consequence of the illegal entry, they lose any chance of legal entry to the US.

If they sneak back across the boarder and get caught a second time, they get killed.

Now that may be an unpopular opinion.

I absolutely welcome legal immigrants. With very few exceptions, everybody here is in the US because of an immigrant forebear, most of whom entered legally, worked their asses off, learned English and became contributing Americans.

Several of my coworkers were granted their US Citizenship within the last year ... rarely have I seen such glowingly proud people (Two women from Africa, one from India).

[OnyxCougar]

I have no problem with legal immigrants. Just the illegals.