Harassee Gets Time

[wolf]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

So it doesn't matter if you're getting vandalized or not, point a gun, serve the time.

You can't point/shoot a real gun under these circumstances in most US states.

Texas allows you to defend your property. Most states require that you be at risk of losing your life before you are justified in the use of "deadly force."

Much as I hate British gun law, I think the court ruled properly. Provocation is not justification.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by jaguar

I should qualify - sharp object that is not a weapon as such and you have a legitimate reason to be carrying. His examples for the girls was a comb.

Yes beestie.

I've seen very nice combs as well as hairbrushes and ice scrapers that are made of especially strong polymers ...

(The item I was looking for that I couldn't find was an actual hairbrush that rather than having a concealed knife just had a very pointy handle ...)

[wolf]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

At least get a can of OC-10, which can be reasonably effective in allowing you to escape an attacker until you get far enough away not to be a threat to his rights.

Except that I've had several people brought to me after being sprayed where the cop (and 8 of his cohorts) were spraying the dude and they comment, "I would have been better off throwing the can at him."

Lots of our local departments have tazers now ... and we've had people charge through the tazing. Doesn't always bring the guy down. The most recent one, who was okay until he was being transported in the police car and freaked out, kicking out the window of the car and bending the doorframe, had to be tazered three times to drop him. And yes, the hooks set right each time.

[jaguar]

IIRC the long points bits are for defining parts or somesuch but are a good length and pointiness to be very effective.

[Undertoad]

Looks like tazering is now used as an alternative to hitting the guy in the knees with the bat.

Which is a little weird, since they were sold as the alternative to shooting the guy.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by wolf

Much as I hate British gun law, I think the court ruled properly. Provocation is not justification.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it sensible. As we see every day. I think the real issue is only going to show up down the road for the citizens of England. As we know, things aren't ready to get better yet, they haven't gotten bad enough yet.

That being said, she overreacted and the court appears to have ruled within it's abilities.

It's still silly rules though.

[jaguar]

Um, when are you expecting it to turn up? IIRC the law has been around since the 70s.
Which bit is silly? Firing a gun at someone's feet and threatening someone with a gun in response to pouring water of your son's car?

What is, in your opinion the real issue? We can't own guns here? We can't kill intruders with total legal impudy, which as wolf stated, is the same as in most of the US?

[mrnoodle]

The real issue is that when people feel their safety is threatened, they have no idea what is or isn't an appropriate response. Their innate need to defend themselves is short-circuited by fear of reprisal from the government that's supposed to be protecting them. It doesn't help, either, that calling the cops and getting someone arrested is essentially inviting the bad guy to seek revenge when his lawyer gets him a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[lookout123]

ah, screw it. move to arizona. you can open carry, conceal carry with an easily acquired permit, and if someone pisses you off we have plenty of open desert in which to bury the offending parties carcass.

[jaguar]

......so in all confrontations the only real solution, in your eyes, is to shoot them until they collapse in a bloody heap? I'm not using hyperbole here, that honestly seems to be what you're arguing.

[lookout123]

i was being over the top Jag.

i don't have any solutions to society's problems, but i do feel that anyone who so much as steps foot into my home without invitation should fall in a bloody heap. i don't care whether they are coming or going. if they hadn't entered my domain in the first place i wouldn't have had the reason to drop them.

to paraphrase Chris Rock - if you don't want the police to F with you, don't do stupid shit.

if you don't want me to shoot you, don't break into my home or illegally enter my property in any way. hell, if my truck is in the driveway and i see you break into it, i should be able to drop you. IMO.

[jaguar]

was talking about noodle, he seemed to be implying that in any confrontational situation the only permanant solution was someone to die.

I disagree with you but *shrugs*.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jaguar

......so in all confrontations the only real solution, in your eyes, is to shoot them until they collapse in a bloody heap? I'm not using hyperbole here, that honestly seems to be what you're arguing.

No, a responsible shooter saves the firearm for use as a last resort.

And do you want to take the time to assess whether you're about to get killed or just mugged?

Any guy comes at me with a pipe or a knife gets to play christmas tree.

[mrnoodle]

Or, in one sentence: If you try to victimize me in my home, I will kill you.

jag, if someone is mucking around your place, how can you possibly know what their intentions are? You already know they aren't good intentions, and they could include ending your life. Do you really want to take a chance on anything less than the strongest possible defense you can muster?

[jaguar]

TS:

It doesn't help, either, that calling the cops and getting someone arrested is essentially inviting the bad guy to seek revenge when his lawyer gets him a get-out-of-jail-free card.

This implies that unless you kill the guy, the problem isn't over, that was my gripe there.

Beyond that, the situations where people were jailed in UK were ones where they clearly weren't in personal danger yet still used or attempted to use deadly force. I don't think that's right, if someone is running away I don't give a fuck if they pissed on your cat and smashed your family photos, you shouldn't have the right to kill them. Same again, if you see some guy breaking into your car I don't think you should be able to empty a clip into him. If he turned around and came at you with a knife it's another story. In situations where you are in personal danger you are permitted to use deadly force until the threat is gone. In the UK that isn't in the vast majority of situations going to be a firearm, it could however be one of many other objects capable of killing someone. If someone came at me yes, I would almost certainly try and disable them in a way that would also kill them.

To nail this real nice and hard. If I was in say, Switzerland where I could quite reasonably and would probably own and have with me a pistol: Let's game it. I wake up, hear a noise, take out the gun, get up and go hunting, walk into living room, see a guy there. If he comes at me, I'm going to shoot him till he stops coming at me, if he runs off, I'm just going to make sure he's gone and call the cops.

I guess in short I value life, including criminals, higher than property.