Rice urges calm, calls Koran desecration abhorrent

[elSicomoro]

Whether this is true or not, we're fucked either way. If it happened, the folks that did it are total pieces of shit, and we've pissed on the Muslims again (though I wouldn't call desecrating the Qu'ran torture). If it didn't happen, we're still gonna get the evil eye, primarily b/c of Abu Ghraib.

Of course, if everyone would just give up organized religion...

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by sycamore

If it didn't happen, we're still gonna get the evil eye, primarily b/c of Abu Ghraib.

From MSNBC: The firestorm of anger continued Monday over Newsweek's handling of a story that alleged U.S. interrogators desecrated the Quran as Muslim leaders and the Bush administration both blasted the magazine’s partial retraction of the piece.

Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan said that U.S. pressure was behind the magazine's shift while presidential spokesman Scott McClellan called it "puzzling" that "while Newsweek now acknowledges that they got the facts wrong, they refuse to retract the story." U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called the story "appalling."

[tw]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Whether this is true or not, we're fucked either way.

The word is credibility. Did they throw Korans down the toilet? Well don't think of them as books. Think of pocket books that when open can easily fit in your palm. In Arabic media, an equivalent to the O'Reilly Factor interviewed two former prisoners from Guantanamo. Both said they saw Korans thrown down the toilet. Furthermore, I was hearing these accusation being made at least one one year ago in international broadcasts. Somehow, the accusation was only recently picked up by, for example, a famous sportsman now turned commentator in Pakistan. It was not just Newsweek that had been making these accusations.

Look. Those men were held for years in Guantanamo and then released - not even accued of any crimes. The same people who held those two men illegally (the US Government) will be considered honest when saying the Koran was not thrown down the toilet? They lied about the prisoners being al Qaeda. These men also said they were tortured. This is reported to be ordered from the White House that simply decided to change the definition of torture.

Credibility was only one of many things lost when torture was authorized in the highest levels of the American government. Where are all those who, in the Cellar, said that torture is a legitamite tool for interrogation. Why are they suddenly so silent? Why are they not out here avidly defending the credibility of a White House that authorized torture, denied it, and now tries to claim the Koran was not abused. Or has the definition of 'toilet' also changed?

Credibility is even that low among one of Americans stronger supporters.
This comic published in Indian newspapers shows a worried Uncle Sam throwing copies of Newsweek down the toilet. Its all about credibility. The US does not even have one fluent Arabic speaker on the White House staff. But somehow they just know that the Arabic nations will trust them? American credibility therefore is even difficult in India.

[tw]

These are exactly the lessons of Vietnam. When top management routinely lies (ie the US President), then lying is routine all down into the ranks.

from the NY Times of 22 May 2005
Army Faltered in Investigating Detainee Abuse
Despite autopsy findings of homicide and statements by soldiers that two prisoners died after being struck by guards at an American military detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, Army investigators initially recommended closing the case without bringing any criminal charges, documents and interviews show.

But these are the good guys. Therefore we have the right to not investigate murders.

As Gen Janise Karpenski of Abu Ghraid fame noted, her troops did not come to Iraq carrying dog collars and leashes. Those things appeared when Gen Miller arrived from Guantanamo to Gitmoize Abu Ghraid. But we don't want to embarrass the US. So we blame the little people. Clearly those Afghan prisoners must have been guilty of something. Otherwise god would not have let them die.

Sarcastic? We also had to burn the village to save it. But then that was thirty years ago. We don't need no lessons from history. We have a bible to use as toilet paper. Remember, even the definition of toilet has now changed. Maybe those prisoners did not die? Maybe they were just recycled. Good Morning Richard Nixon, Vietnam, and six dead in Ohio - when a president lies.

Too many in The Cellar, I fear, were not at least 16 when Richard Nixon was doing the same things. This is Vietnam all over again - complete with some Americans who refuse to admit such *evil* has happened only because Americans would not do such things. Nonsense. That is the lesson of history. The president even authorized torture. Even those who committed My Lai could not be prosecuted because, well, the president back then was a crook. Lets face it. There is no difference between a gook and a dirty Arab. Clearly it is not right to soil the reputation of some Americans over a few dead (and probably innocent) Arabs.

FISHing. Fighting In Someone's House. Throw in the grenade. Then go in to find out if it is an insurgent or a family that was killed. Full Metal Jacket or Platoon - movies based upon reality. Doesn't matter. When everyone over there is the enemy, then these are legitimate tactics. They are only gooks in Arab robes. Don't fool yourself. That is our nation's attitude when we go to war without waiting for the smoking gun.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What I hear from the rank and file Bush supporters and many that aren't is, "Good, the bastards deserve it." and "Cut off their balls if it will save one of our boys."
I don't know if Bush convinced them or they convinced Bush that it's the right thing to do. Maybe they're on the same wavelength.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What I hear from the rank and file Bush supporters and many that aren't is, "Good, the bastards deserve it." and "Cut off their balls if it will save one of our boys."

Just like in Vietnam. Two years ago, these numbers would be appalling. Today they are 'second page' news stories. Today nine Americans were killed in Iraq. Yesterday's number was five. Same numbers from 1960s Vietnam. Eventually, numbers like 20 and 80 dead per day will become situation normal. Just more lessons from history when the US unilaterally attacks another sovereign nation without a 'smoking gun'.

Another lesson from history. We will let these death numbers increase for maybe six or more years. After all, American attack Vietnam in 1965. But it took more than 5 years for a real anti-war movement to start. It took a Tet Offensive some 7 years later to really bring most Americans to start asking questions. But here we are again, 30+ years later. Too many who did not live through Vietnam now have the 'blood and guts', 'kill the enemy', 'might is right' attitude.

Yesterday, George Jr said we are winning the war. Just like Johnson and Nixon repeatedly said 30+ years ago. History just repeating itself. See that light at the end of the tunnel? Today we call it an exit strategy? Both are called fiction.

Its easier to waste good Americans rather than accept reality. After all, that is exactly what those 1960 neocons (back then called Hawks) advocated. Status quo is good. Means justifies the ends. Ends justifies the means. All nonsense so that we will not admit who the enemy really is. We have met the enemy; and he is us. 14 more dead in that past two days - well after "Misson Accomplished" was declared.

[jaguar]

bruce, you don't think Christians would be rioting in the same circumstances? Philippino christians fucking crucify themselves.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by jaguar

bruce, you don't think Christians would be rioting in the same circumstances? Philippino christians fucking crucify themselves.

Absolutely not. Possibly a protest, more likely a pray-in, but burning buildings, looting, killing...no way in this country and I doubt in the Philippines either.
Especially on unsubstantiated rumors and I doubt it even if was televised live.
It seems the Koran is more venerated than it's contents. If they paid more attention to the contents they wouldn't be rioting, burning, looting, et al.

[elSicomoro]

Hell, I'm all for giving Muslims a bunch of Bibles to fuck up...why not?

[elSicomoro]

From what I've read, the Qu'ran is more sacred to Muslims than the Bible is to many Christians. It's considered the untainted written word of God. Still...I don't think desecrating it compares to waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, etc.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sycamore

From what I've read, the Qu'ran is more sacred to Muslims than the Bible is to many Christians. It's considered the untainted written word of God.

And you don't think the fundies feel the same way about the bible?

Remember we're talking about the extremists. It's always the extremists because they're the ones in the news. We can't talk about the others because we don't know what they feel or even what they do. It's not on the news.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

And you don't think the fundies feel the same way about the bible?

Nah...that seems rather different to me. Muslims as a whole seem to care way more about their religion than Christians do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You've never had the pleasure of meeting a REAL Christian.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You've never had the pleasure of meeting a REAL Christian.

Have you ever had the pleasure of living in the South? I have.

[jaguar]

From my experience and understanding I'd wonder how much was genuine outrage and how much just might possibly be people taking advantage of the protest to do a little looting. But of course that gets in the way of the oh-so-easy muslims are savages theory doesn't it? 10 people died in Afghanistan - at the hands of police. Considering a few hundred died at the hands of police a few days earlier in Uzbekistan one might suggest that the police might be the problem rather than the protesters. Even in Afghanistan protest in most regions were peaceful. In Pakistan most protets consisted simply of marching around with banners and stamping on the US flag.

But lets not let the facts get in the way, right?