We support our troops????

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by richlevy

You first. My check (unfortunately not $1000) will be out on Monday. Your $1000 check still has time to beat it.

Well, I noticed that Soldier's Angels takes Paypal, so I just made the donation. I'll follow up with an e-mail and hope that they use it for the 3rd ACR, since I put them in the "SHIPPING" address. If not, it's still worthwhile.

It's not a lot, but if you add in UG's $1000, the Cellar will be well represented.

Originally Posted by richlevy

Well, I noticed that Soldier's Angels takes Paypal, so I just made the donation. I'll follow up with an e-mail and hope that they use it for the 3rd ACR, since I put them in the "SHIPPING" address. If not, it's still worthwhile.

It's not a lot, but if you add in UG's $1000, the Cellar will be well represented.

Thank you so much, Rich, UG, and everyone else who responded! I just spoke with Bob Calvert and he said he has never seen such a response from a single Internet Forum! Go Cellar! I know Bob only slightly as someone who is also interested in the efforts of Soldier's Angels. Rich is right in that Bob does not yet have 401K status for his 3rd ACR project, although he has applied and that application is in the works. I do know that local "Angels" are backing Bob's efforts 100% and a donation to Soldier's Angels which is a national non-profit with 401K status will go to help a very worthy cause.

As I said, I never meant to get involved in a fund raiser here, only to spark a debate. I would say that the consensus is (with the exception of Dov, who is Canadian) that we DO indeed "support our troops!"

‘Get Me Off the Street’

Nearly half of the homeless vets are from the Vietnam era. Eighty percent of them have substance abuse problems.

45 percent of them are mentally ill and unlikely to get off the streets without treatment.

The Veterans Administration and its network of local government and non-profit organizations can only come up with 100,000 beds each night, enough for only one out of three.

The shortfall is likely to expand as financially strapped municipalities continue to cut public health and housing projects. And a whole new generation of combat veterans is about to hit the system.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=247816&page=2

I am not even touching on the vet who suffers from PTSD or the wife of a vet who was exposed to depleted uranium who gave birth to a deformed child as the result. I am not focusing on the homicides and the suicides of the Iraqi vet.

My post’s aim is to point out the current 300k homeless vets, beds for 100k and the remaining 200k sleep in the cold, and its hopelessness. That figure will quadruple one the dust settles over the Middle East.

Still these figures are only the tip of the iceberg.

Im not knocking your efforts but they do not even scratch the surface. In spite of this , do not give up please. At the exception of several individuals’ efforts, America does not take care of her Vets.

It is nothing short of sinful that The Veterans Administration is horribly under funded.

Before it is over there will be two million vets who will have served in the Middle East, and nobody knows when its over so two million is a modest estimate. Over half will be mentally ill, and the sickest of them will not seek treatment. Even if the Bush administration had an exit plan, they refuse to recognise the sick vet. I do not know how Bush gets away with it, offering no consistent help to the Vietnam Vet, and repeating the exact same attitude towards the Afghanistan and Iraqi vet.

The American Vet is your most precious icon.

I am amazed Americans do not recognise the heart of the second amendment and storm the White House. How much more abuse can you accept?

I would say that the consensus is (with the exception of Dov, who is Canadian) that we DO indeed "support our troops!"

Being Canadian I cannot hurt, care, or contribute?? That is half the problem, your arrogant bridge burnings and becoming isolated, to the point that every forum I have ever seen has a thread about building a wall around America. It has become a moral dilemma and blocking yourselves off, will not fix your common lack of basic principles as manifested in the homeless vet. SHAME!

You do not take care of your vets. The numbers do not lie.

A country is judged by how it treats its prisoners and vets. You are zero for two.

Feodor Mikhailovich Dostoyevsky (1821–81) QUOTATION:

The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.

George Washington wrote that:

"A nation will be judged by the way it treats its veterans."

Soldiers Making Bracelets

Well, Dov, you first couple of posts seemed to be more about the maniacal homicidal vet, as much as anything. I believe this is called stereotyping. Your most recent post is more along the lines of the discussion I hoped to generate by reposting Mr. Calvert's e-mail. I agree that while individual members of the Cellar have made a gratifying response, that this support does not hold across America, in general.

The local VA is stretched to ridiculous limits. The last time I heard, each VA therapist has a case load of 500 veterans. This ratio is absurd. I question your statistic of fully half the Iraq War veterans having a mental disorder, but the 500 to one case load statistic is very bad news if even 1% of them ultimately need mental health services.

Mr. Calvert expressed his dismay over the difficulty of getting support even here in this military based town. I am actually not very surprised over this because Colorado Springs has become a headquarters town for the religous right - far more so than it is even for the 3rd ACR and Ft. Carson to the south. And religous fundamentalists are notoriously close fisted.

I once had occasion to visit the World Center on Prayer (or some such name - they all begin to sound the same after the first 500 or so outfits move in - I live at the mouth of the many headed beast itself, my friend. You would have nightmares just driving around up in the north part of this town). The WCP place covers literally acres of land, the street in front of it is named after it, it has two giant gleaming office complexex, complete with gyms, bookstores, cafeteria, worship centers (of course!), and a vast parking lot filled with gleaming late model cars. I picked up some of their literature out of curiosity and it was all about fund drives, and how the reader could send their check in the mail, etc. I couldn't figure out the purpose of this megaplex of prayer, however. Were they praying for world peace? Undertaking famine relief in the third world? They didn't seem interested in luring in Jews, BTW - I guess they haven't gotten around to reading Zebe-ya-ma-call-it yet in their brand new leather bound Bibles.

I asked the lady at the front desk what they did in the way of charity? She seemed puzzled by my question. I said, "You know - good works, helping others, helping the poor and the homeless. Or, say what about the vets?" She gave me a blank stare and said, "I'm not aware of anything like that. Are you saved, dear?" I replied, "I"m Buddhist, ma'am. Where would you like these 300 phone books they told me to drop off for you?" She looked at me in mild horror and pointed a disdainful finger back toward the mail room.

I've rambled along here, but the point is that the US does NOT have a draft. The young men and women who enlist in the military come from the lesser advantaged stratums of American Society. Fort Carson and its active duty soldiers remains tucked out of sight and out of mind of most of this "military" town and this world "peacekeeper" nation. We don't speak of such things, dear. Please take all deliveries to the back entrance and stop asking so many questions.

Originally Posted by marichiko

Well, Dov, you first couple of posts seemed to be more about the maniacal homicidal vet, as much as anything.

Stats man, and Kos had to stagger though thousands of local papers to find them. Zero support from the man. There are many maniacal homicidal vets, who dont have to be. That is the tragedy and in my view, it is criminal not caring for them. Moral? I am sure you know my view, if the administration is moral or not.

I wasn’t holding the vets responsible. How can I hold a sick individual responsible? Could I blame a cancer victim, in chronic pain for being cranky?

Someone is responsible for the sick vet, one single individual who would rather spend at least a billion dollars a week on bombs than help Americas most precious beings, the vets who fulfilled their duty without question.

We really aren’t that far apart in ideology. I dont expose myself easily on Message Boards, mega personas.

Your post was excellent.

I have two vocations, I am a sculptor and a fund raiser, professional.

Keep plugging man, every little bit helps.

(It actually helps you the most, doing the right thing, not talking, doing.)

Thanks

[fargon]

Hey dov I am a disabled Vet and in pain most of the time. I know quite a few home less and mentaly challanged Vets. We try to help them any way we can. I do not have money to donate but I have time, wich I give freely and without constraint. I know these people and admire they gave their best the VA in Wisconsin takes very good care of us and try's to reach out to everyone in need. Some cannot be reached with normal methods sometimes we need to try other tactics, sometimes it works, and sometimes it dont. But we dont give up! All you can do is find fault, if you cannot help then shut up.
Terry L. Bell USCG

Originally Posted by fargon

if you cannot help then shut up.
Terry L. Bell USCG

I understand your frustration and anger. If it alleviates you to vent on me I am glad I could help. Its your choice that you accept the situation and feel hopeless. I do not accept it.

Chacon son gout.

All the best to you Terry L. Bell.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Chacon son gout.

Hmm... erratic street French. We need a verb, or a conjunction, but nobody's going to quibble over a circumflex absent from an English keyboard. Yes, I am proud of my French, among my other languages.

Chacun à son goût, ou Chacun a son goût. Alt + 0251 gets you there if you really want it.

cool.

I am dyslexic in three languages. Words spell check is adequate for English

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Hmm... erratic street French.

Québécois

Home of poutine.
French fries, cheese curd and brown gravy.

[Undertoad]

Q: What's the English translation of "Je me souviens"?

A: "I don't tip"

[richlevy]

There were to op-ed pieces in the Inquirer today.

Here is a view from the anti-war side.

A firestorm over U.S. forces in Iraq

Original column: Why he doesn't support troops or war

By Joel Stein

<!-- begin body-content --> I don't support our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

And I've got no problem with other people - the ones who were for the Iraq war - supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea then, by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets, and bracelets, and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken - and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest, but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there - and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7 percent was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

And here is a view from the pro-war side.

Yet, Stein and I have something in common. We both see the war and its warriors as inexorably joined. While I write letters to critically wounded soldiers at Walter Reed, Stein is asserting his disdain for yellow ribbons and, in his opinion, the sort of pollyanna support they represent. In each case, we resist the tide of whitewashing sentiment resulting in an unwillingness to establish a coherent stand on the Iraq war.

Stein says what many soft-core antiwar people are not willing to say. He has rejected euphemism, and, in doing so, cracked the granite of fainthearted dissent. In my case, while I have often been frustrated by how this war has been prosecuted (troop levels, torture accusations, and so on), I supported the removal of Saddam and the attempt at establishing democracy in the region. I had also come to see some kind of U.S. presence in that part of the world as an inevitability, whether now or 10 years from now, when - as we currently contemplate the meaning of a Hamas victory in Palestine - we can hardly imagine what the political landscape will be.

Thus, I do support the war - despite an administration that has squandered an historic opportunity to inspire and engage the civilians of this country in a campaign of service and duty during these uneasy times. I believe that if I support the troops, their morale might improve, leading to a swifter success and return to America. It's an extrapolation, but I stand by it, even as I listen to criticisms of the war. I realize I must assume responsibility for supporting the mission as well as the men. I want them to win. To deconstruct the issue in order to appear compassionate, patriotic and progressive at the same time is, at best, self-serving, and, at worst, dangerously misleading to the men and women charged with this duty. After all, what exactly does it mean to say you support one without the other? You want the troops to perform well, yet just short of victory?

His glibness aside, Stein is honest and direct, even at the risk of offending a lot of people, including the troops. He is perhaps not the kind of man who would subscribe to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" credo, but then he may not see the value in being so Jesuitical in his arguments against the war. In this case, I don't see the sin as a sin - but I admit I don't always love the "sinner" either.

So individuals from both the pro-war and anti-war side say that I or anyone cannot support soldiers without supporting the war? Bullshit.

By that reasoning, anyone sending care packages to Vietnam would have had to automatically support the troops staying there indefinitely.

Ms. Sciolla states that:

After all, what exactly does it mean to say you support one without the other? You want the troops to perform well, yet just short of victory?

No, but recognizing that troops need to come home at some point is necessary, as is recognizing when to walk away. Most of the troops came home from Korea without a 'win'. Technically, we have already 'won' in Iraq, and there will probably not be any clear point in the occupation where we can say "we're finished". Ms. Sciolla apparently has a vision of what victory in Iraq is, which is something even the adminstration cannot articulate. From her comments on a US 'presence', she seems to believe that we will find a country in that region that wants us to remain there in occupation, something even the Iraqi government opposes.

No, I for one can differentiate between giving aid and comfort to soldiers who have volunteered to 'support and defend the Constitution' without buying into any particular mission that they have been given.

[Aliantha]

Technically, we have already 'won' in Iraq, and there will probably not be any clear point in the occupation where we can say "we're finished".

It might be when the first Iraqi teenager says the famous words, "Would you like fries with that?"

"Je me souviens" = Lest we forget, word for word, I will remember.

I don’t get the tipping comment but it tastes like some ignorant bigoted remark.

Correct me if I am wrong.

We generally give 15 percent. The range is from nothing (a penny) for lousy service to 100 percent.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Ann Landers, advice columnist, once suggested not zero, but two cents for service worth maybe that much. I've never been that disappointed in a restaurant's service, but if, as, and when...