Understanding terrorism

[mrnoodle]

So we should base our military strategies around the propoganda of the enemy? This isn't a PR campaign, this is a military campaign. We can't win the former until we win the latter. Repeat, we MUST win in Iraq, regardless of how anyone feels about the cause of the war, the president who engaged it, or any other factor. We can't pull another Somalia or Vietnam this time. Much more is at stake.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

--X--

Repeat, we MUST win in Iraq,

--X--

Simple, but not easy question: Will you define this please?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

So we should base our military strategies around the propoganda of the enemy? This isn't a PR campaign, this is a military campaign.

It is both. And yes, you do have to take enemy propaganda into account when making military strategy. Because if we end up behaving the way their propaganda predicts, they become stronger.

[bargalunan]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I couldn't resist. You did sort of leave yourself wide open, there. I'll be good. I promise!

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey, mrn, do you even read your own posts? Or are you more of a perfomance artist, just firing them off blindly, like some beat poet of the blog generation? Should I be listening for content and consistency or is it more the flow, the rhythm?
.

MrNoodle you're fantastic : in 10 lines, you always give rise to 2 pages of good comments. On the one hand, that make me… cheerful !
(Hoping that won't hurt you)

About US influence in Eastern Europe :
Ukrainian president Iouchenko’s wife is US, his three children have US nationality.
He was famous in having been poisoned by Russians and his spotty face was showing it. In fact he had plastic surgery in Austria and didn’t respect the precautions like no alcohol…
Info coming from Ukrainian medias. French medias have never said it. Ukrainian people are already disgusted with Orange Revolution (organised by US)...

[mrnoodle]

We do not behave as their propoganda predicts. Our rules of engagement, rules for prisoner treatment, and rules for interacting with non-combatants are more stringent, more bend-over-backwards conciliatory than those of any armed force in history. Anywhere.

The only place enemy propoganda is having the desired effect is on our own soil. The "insurgents" (a misnomer, as they are not from Iraq, nor are they fighting on behalf of Iraq -- they target civilians) are failing. Iraqis are not joining insurgent forces -- in fact, they're working with us, fighting alongside us, and refusing to give in to terrorism.

Where enemy propoganda works is in the American media, who are on a constant mission to prove wrongdoing on the part of American forces and leadership. Soldier A shot someone without provocation. Soldier B didn't handle the Koran with latex gloves, thus offending the prisoners. Theinsurgencyiswinningtheinsurgencyiswinningtheinsurgencyiswinning. Day after day after day. Nary a single kind word about a soldier, unless they are thoughtful enough to die and provide more proof that theinsurgencyiswinningtheinsurgencyiswinningtheinsurgencyiswinning. Hell, the terrorists hardly even NEED al Jazeera. They have the New York Times.

[Hobbs]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The only place enemy propoganda is having the desired effect is on our own soil. The "insurgents" (a misnomer, as they are not from Iraq, nor are they fighting on behalf of Iraq -- they target civilians) are failing. Iraqis are not joining insurgent forces -- in fact, they're working with us, fighting alongside us, and refusing to give in to terrorism.

I don't know if I agree with this statement. I tried reading this several times so as not to misquote, mislead, or take out of context thereby angering you... . The propoganda is working very well off our soil. You have to remember, there are lots of people over in Iraq who have been led to believe that we are responsible for the misery in their country via the embargos. There are lots of folks over there who hate us after all these years just in general. When someone says something bad about the U.S., they are more apt to believe it than not. The terroists know this and use this very well. If it didn't work, they why bother release statements, videos, audio tapes. True, some of these have the United States as a targeted audience in mind, but it is very effective in Islmaic countries as well. I might not aide much in recruitment purposes, but it does bolster support and serves as justification for thier actions. Yeah, a lot of what is reported by the terrorists are not true (reports of abuse, number of dead woman and childern), but lots of people over there are not willing to give us the benifit of the doubt.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

We do not behave as their propoganda predicts. Our rules of engagement, rules for prisoner treatment, and rules for interacting with non-combatants are more stringent, more bend-over-backwards conciliatory than those of any armed force in history. Anywhere.

I didn't say rules. I said behavior. Of course there are rules against things like Abu Ghraib and Guantanimo and "disappearing" prisoners, but they also need to be followed. And even if every rule of engagement were followed to a tee, we invaded a country on false pretenses! Nothing could have assisted enemy propaganda more than that.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The "insurgents" (a misnomer, as they are not from Iraq, nor are they fighting on behalf of Iraq -- they target civilians) are failing. Iraqis are not joining insurgent forces -- in fact, they're working with us, fighting alongside us, and refusing to give in to terrorism.

Did you read the blog of Michael Yon, which UT linked to in the Image of the Day on the IED? In that blog, Yon writes about his experience with our troops as they caught a terrorist red handed, trying to blow up a bomb buried under a road in Mosul. They take the terrorist back to his house to search it. His mom is very proud of her boy:

She smiled the whole time, as if to say, That's my boy! The translator heard her say to her son, "Don't worry. You will be released soon." She smiled at me.

The most serious terrorists do not fear prison here. Captain Jeff VanAntwerp, who commands Alpha Company, recently told me that Iraqis joke among themselves that they would pay 5,000 dinar per night to stay at Abu Ghraib prison. It's air-conditioned, the showers are good, the food is good, and the water is good. The mother seemed to know this and it curled in contempt behind her smile.

Our guys back at the Yarmuk traffic circle called saying they were in a little firefight and were taking mortar fire. But on the block where the terrorist lived, with his proud smiling mother, soldiers knocked on the neighbors' doors. The children clearly recognized the man, but everyone disavowed knowledge of him, despite that his mother encouraged him in front of us.

When the soldiers talked with other neighbors, they showed the transmitter and the terrorist. But clearly this was not diminishing his stature: We were making a local hero. And his neighbors were coalescing to shield him. This wasn't getting us anywhere useful, so we changed course...

Sure, there are some foreign terrorists in Iraq. But there are native Iraqi terrorists too. And they enjoy the support of many of their fellow Iraqis.

[mrnoodle]

re: Hobbs

Of course there are people who believe the anti-US propaganda. But not the kids who line up for candy and photographs with the soldiers.

Oh wait, they're dead. Killed by the noble freedom fighters.


(I don't get mad at these discussions, not really. It's just mystifying how people's outlooks can be so different given that we're all looking at the same information)

[Hobbs]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

re: Hobbs
Oh wait, they're dead. Killed by the noble freedom fighters.

And what did we see shortly after this occured? Riots in the street by civilians protesting the freedom fighters...no. They blamed the U.S. Fist-pumping marches denouncing the U.S. "occupation." Grrr! Drive me nuts!

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Hobbs

And what did we see shortly after this occured? Riots in the street by civilians protesting the freedom fighters...no. They blamed the U.S. Fist-pumping marches denouncing the U.S. "occupation." Grrr! Drive me nuts!

I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or not.



I really have to get back to work.

[Hobbs]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or not.

My point was the terroists use this opportunty for bad publicity for the Americans soldiers. U.S. miltary + kids = death and distruction. The obvious culprits are of course the freedom fighters, but the blame gose to the U.S. eventhough it is obvious who is at fault. The insurgent propoganda machine keeps on rolling along.

[mrnoodle]

So.

The behavior of a minority of individuals indicts the whole country (vis-a-vis American actions).

And...

The behavior of a minority of individuals does NOT indict a whole country (vis-a-vis terrorism).

mmmmk.

And we didn't invade a country on false pretenses. As I recall, we didn't ask for their permission in the first place. We did get bad intel on WMD, but that was only one of several reasons Bush gave at the time. It was the sexy one, but not the only one. At any rate, dragging this up every time you are forced to admit that we need to win this war is bad form.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The behavior of a minority of individuals indicts the whole country (vis-a-vis American actions).

I'm not indicting the whole country. I'm indicting the administration that fights tooth and nail every attempt to investigate the widespread abuses in the many detention centers the US operates. The coverup is worse than the crime, for the purposes of PR.

And we didn't invade a country on false pretenses. As I recall, we didn't ask for their permission in the first place.

We did get bad intel on WMD, but that was only one of several reasons Bush gave at the time. It was the sexy one, but not the only one. At any rate, dragging this up every time you are forced to admit that we need to win this war is bad form.

The rest of them didn't hold up either, which is why he went with WMDs. And I've been referring to the invasion the whole time. Why the surprise?

[bargalunan]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The behavior of a minority of individuals does NOT indict a whole country (vis-a-vis terrorism).

I will remember this sentence (vis-a-vis US politics) : Mrnoodle does NOT indict whole US people !