Drug Wars tooooo close to home!

[jinx]

Stop cooperating what way?
If 70+% of AZ residents support the law, how solid is that argument? Sounds as rational an argument as "cops might abuse the law".

[Cloud]

I think the article explains it better than I can.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cloud

your purpose in quoting my first post is . . . . ? None of that has changed. On THIS side of the border, it's the second safest city in the nation. On the OTHER side of the border, it's the most dangerous city in the world.

Isn't that one of the reasons they are coming here? Perhaps addressing that issue will stem the tide of criminals crossing the border. Perhaps those cities are staging grounds for those coming here which increases the transient population. Perhaps those are the areas where the drugs are packaged/prepared whatever to come over here. Perhaps addressing that will change the situation. Perhaps we would do better to spend the money on aid to Mexico to address those issues in those areas as it appears Obama is doing.. .. .. Perhaps

[Cloud]

historically, they are not coming to the US for safety, but rather for economic reasons. Most recently, of course, many people living in Mexican border cities have come here for safety.

[jinx]

I think the article explains it better than I can.

Can you copy/paste the part that does?

I can't believe anyone would think that was a good article, worth linking to and quoting, to be honest - even if you agree with the authors opinion (which is what really? that illegal immigration is GOOD for us? For any country? What the hell?). Aside from completely failing to distinguish between immigrants and illegal aliens, it was so full of opinion and snark I found myself skimming despite actually wanting to find the part you must be talking about.

News. Yeah.

[Cloud]

(shrugs) it's an opinion piece. It talks of populations who are being targeted by immigration police ceasing to cooperate in this way:

The intelligence needed to find and fight hard-core criminals, whatever their immigration status, will be harder to get. People who feel themselves singled out for discrimination will withdraw more and more into ghettos, increasingly marginalized from American life instead of integrated into it. Smart cops understand all this perfectly well.

Do I agree with this? Dunno, but that's what the article describes, in answer to your request.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cloud

(shrugs) It talks of populations who are being targeted by immigration police ceasing to cooperate in this way:

Originally Posted by Cloud

the definition of ironic:

And here's another way....
Those statistics are based upon violent crimes REPORTED.
Do you think the illegal immigrants report all crimes to the police or FBI? I certainly don't. That would kinda skew the numbers, wouldn't it.

[Cloud]

well, nobody has to report murders, do they? ('cause dead bodies laying around are self-evident). According to the FBI's statistics from last year (as reported by the story) El Paso had 12 murders; Detroit, 361.

I mean -- you don't think these statistics are ironic? (puzzled)

[classicman]

What is the populations of the two cities and their densities? Income levels and so on. Statistics are variable upon so many factors that a comparison of 360-12 doesn't mean a lot without the context.

For example - Significantly more people who own washing machines get into car accidents. What does that relationship really mean? Are the two relevant?

[Cloud]

yeah, and one of the variables is the number of immigrants, illegal or otherwise.

I'm not making apologies for the article piercedhawkeye posted though--you can read it and make your own opinion.

[classicman]

Thats fair enough.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by jinx

Stop cooperating what way?
If 70+% of AZ residents support the law, how solid is that argument? Sounds as rational an argument as "cops might abuse the law".

There is a difference between the two arguments. The "cops might abuse the law" argument is irrational because most cops are not going to go out of their way to be extremely racist. It is not worth a cop's time to go out checking random person's ID to see if they are an illegal immigrant or not.

Many minorities populations have very bad communication skills with the police. Whether their logic is correct or not, I honestly don't really care, they claim that they don't talk to police because they are sick of being interrogated if they try to give any information to police. Also, there is a big stigma against talking to cops and can result in retaliation. The reasons why minority populations do not always communicate with police exist, so it would be logical that the threat of deportation would cause less communication between police and populations where many illegal immigrants live. I don't know if that is true or not but it seems logical

Basically, the argument is that an illegal immigrant or someone who has connections with illegal immigrants (I'm guessing a large portion of the Hispanic population) will be less likely to talk to police about rapes, murders, etc, because of this law.

Originally Posted by jinx

I can't believe anyone would think that was a good article, worth linking to and quoting

I quoted what I did for a reason. Cloud made a statement that many of the safest cities in the US have a higher Latino population and I read an article that somewhat backed it up with a scholarly article and FBI data so I posted it. The article is reactionary, hence biased and makes logical flaws, but I didn't see how the article point's was "immigration is good"?

Originally Posted by classicman

And here's another way....
Those statistics are based upon violent crimes REPORTED.
Do you think the illegal immigrants report all crimes to the police or FBI? I certainly don't. That would kinda skew the numbers, wouldn't it.

Seems like an odd way to frame it to me.

The question is not crimes reported BY illegal immigrants, but crimes committed by illegals and reported BY legal residents.

But your point does address one of the concerns expressed by many police chiefs. That the law may have an adverse impact on community policing in Hispanic communities. That is undermines trust....people less willing to cooperate with the cops if their own residency is subject to more scrutiny...or have experienced a friend or family member being approached by the cops and asked to provide proof of residency... and having done nothing wrong....particularly legal residents in the Hispanic community.

Originally Posted by classicman

What is the populations of the two cities and their densities? Income levels and so on. Statistics are variable upon so many factors that a comparison of 360-12 doesn't mean a lot without the context.

For example - Significantly more people who own washing machines get into car accidents. What does that relationship really mean? Are the two relevant?

That doesnt account for the fact that in cities like El Paso and border cities in AZ, violent crime has not increased.

Not comparing city-to-city, but comparing a city's violent crime rate over the period of recent years.

[jinx]

in answer to your request.

Thanks Cloud.


The "article" is crap. Speaks more to lack of journalistic integrity than it does to immigration of any kind.
The AZ law will make it more difficult for illegal aliens to exist in AZ. Period. People that don't like that (ie. illegal aliens and those that profit from them) have come up with countless arguments against the law, all based on misrepresentation, misunderstanding or ignorance of the law, or hyperbole. This crap is more of the same.