Do You Own a Gun?

[Radar]

My rights have nothing to do with the Constitution. My rights don't come from the government. I was BORN with the right to own any number of any kind of gun I want without any government oversight or permission.

The Constitution merely protects the rights we're born with and even if the 2nd amendment were stricken from the Constitution entirely, I'd still have that right.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

My rights have nothing to do with the Constitution. My rights don't come from the government. I was BORN with the right to own any number of any kind of gun I want without any government oversight or permission.

Any type of gun, or any type of weapon? Nukes? Bioweapons?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Any type of gun, or any type of weapon? Nukes? Bioweapons?

What part of "any" do you have a hard time comprehending? I have the right to own any weapon as long as I'm not physically harming or endangering others with it. Merely owning a weapon doesn't endanger anyone. If I own nukes, I should be able to prove that they are not leaking radiation onto my neighbors. I should be able to prove that I have any bioweapons stored in such a way that there is no way for the germs to escape and endanger my neighbors.

I should be able to own a tank, a fighter jet, or even a nuclear sub complete with nuclear warheads if I can afford it and don't use them to threaten or endanger others.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

What part of "any" do you have a hard time comprehending? I have the right to own any weapon as long as I'm not physically harming or endangering others with it.

I understand what "any" means, but I don't always get the same answer when I ask others what they mean by "any".

Merely owning a weapon doesn't endanger anyone. If I own nukes, I should be able to prove that they are not leaking radiation onto my neighbors. I should be able to prove that I have any bioweapons stored in such a way that there is no way for the germs to escape and endanger my neighbors.

Prove to whom? Do they have the right to make your ownership rights contingent on regular inspections and code compliance? How would they know to make those inspections - should you have to register the weapons with the inspectors in order to own them?

[slang]

Keep going everyone, keep going.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I understand what "any" means, but I don't always get the same answer when I ask others what they mean by "any".
Prove to whom? Do they have the right to make your ownership rights contingent on regular inspections and code compliance? How would they know to make those inspections - should you have to register the weapons with the inspectors in order to own them?

You'd have to prove it to your neighbors if they claimed you were endangering them. Actually it goes the other way. They would have to prove you were endangering them in order to take any actions against you. If they made such claims and had enough evidence to get a trial, you'd then have to prove your storage was safe.....or nuke the court.

[Aliantha]

OK. Here's a concession. Accepting that normal rational sane people should be able to carry guns legally with all the permits etc, and discounting all the accidents that stem from this as simply accidents just like misspelling and drunk driving and fat people; what is being done about the massive number of people who have illegal guns or own them illegally. Or are trafficking guns to minors or are committing crimes with guns etc?

This is really the crux of the problem if you accept that everyone should have the right to own a gun...isn't it?

Originally Posted by Aliantha

OK. Here's a concession. Accepting that normal rational sane people should be able to carry guns legally with all the permits etc, and discounting all the accidents that stem from this as simply accidents just like misspelling and drunk driving and fat people; what is being done about the massive number of people who have illegal guns or own them illegally. Or are trafficking guns to minors or are committing crimes with guns etc?

This is really the crux of the problem if you accept that everyone should have the right to own a gun...isn't it?

It seems that the "crux of the problem" is that a lot of people seem to be under the mistaken impression that removing the rights of law abiding citizens will, somehow, inhibit the actions of criminals.
Even worse, they cannot see the magnificent flaw in this logic.

Originally Posted by Ibram

No, that ISN'T mob rule. They arent coming with torches and pitchforks telling you to get rid of it; they're coming nicely and asking you to please get rid of it. Theyre asking, not telling. To be part of society, you need to make sacrefices. You dont have to make the sacrifice - but if you want to be part of the neighborhood, you might wanna make nice with the neighbors.

Oh, ok then, I would just say "no, thank you". Simple enough.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

It seems that the "crux of the problem" is that a lot of people seem to be under the mistaken impression that removing the rights of law abiding citizens will, somehow, inhibit the actions of criminals.
Even worse, they cannot see the magnificent flaw in this logic.

Well that wasn't really an answer rkz. I already know what a lot of people seem to think.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I know one thing they can do.
In order to buy a gun you have to pass an instant background check. It is a violation of federal law to attempt to buy a gun if know you are ineligible to own one. Over the years hundreds of thousands of people have been prevented from buying a gun by this system. Guess how many have been prosecuted for violation of this federal law? ZERO.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I know one thing they can do.
In order to buy a gun you have to pass an instant background check. It is a violation of federal law to attempt to buy a gun if know you are ineligible to own one. Over the years hundreds of thousands of people have been prevented from buying a gun by this system. Guess how many have been prosecuted for violation of this federal law? ZERO.

Well that sounds like an excellent proposition. I wonder why people don't do something about it.

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well that wasn't really an answer rkz. I already know what a lot of people seem to think.

I answered it earlier, our rights are not up for a vote, I did answer it in the post, law abiding citizens rights are not subject to removal due to the actions of criminals (true also for illegal immigration).
If you want to give up your right to own a firearm, don't buy one.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I answered it earlier, our rights are not up for a vote, I did answer it in the post, law abiding citizens rights are not subject to removal due to the actions of criminals (true also for illegal immigration).
If you want to give up your right to own a firearm, don't buy one.

rkz, my post wasn't anything about rights. I even conceeded that everyone has the right to own a gun, for the sake of sensible discussion.

I asked for a solution to the problem of illegal gun crimes.

[Aliantha]

Oh and yeah I know I said I wasn't going to talk in gun threads anymore, but I broke that rule already when I wanted bruce and spex to stop fighting, and look where that got me.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask that one question - well two actually - without emotion.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Oh and yeah I know I said I wasn't going to talk in gun threads anymore, but I broke that rule already when I wanted bruce and spex to stop fighting, and look where that got me.

Yep: back in the thread is where it got you. I think that's not a horribly bad result.

Now whether the more the noisier is entirely a good thing... Too good a case can be made for it being bad or being good. And I don't think anyone here wants to hijack the thread for a discussion of this minor point.

Having had the logic of his argument demolished, Spexx now is reduced to nasty little ad-hominems based upon a bitter resentment of self defense, which judging by his little breakdown a few pages back, Spexx is quite incapable of doing. The gun people do not indulge in what Spexx does; our decision to defend requires us to think more maturely and carefully -- and knowledgeably. Spexx's outbursts sound like they came out of a six-year-old. You won't hear that kind of thing out of the gun people.