Vaccination & epidemic

[Clodfobble]

You know that thing Flint's always saying, about how when people piss you off it's because they remind you of you?

You make me lose my shit on this topic because you are everything I used to be, before I learned the hard way I was wrong. Do some searching and you'll find me making your exact same arguments as recently as a year and a half ago right here on this board. You think this argument is precisely on par with evolution versus creation. Because I did too. You think you have Science on your side, while I have nothing but desperation and irrational scapegoatism. Because I did too. We could have competed over who could be the most magnanimously smug, the most brutally martyred by our objectivity.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You are accepting this woman's problem as evidence of harm via vaccine... why?

No, let's back up. I'm accepting this woman's problem, and I am only pissed because you are not. Maybe her dystonia wasn't triggered by the vaccine, that's certainly a possibility. But we left that topic several posts ago to instead discuss whether she even has dystonia. You say you are offering an "alternate explanation" for her symptoms, when in fact you are relegating her symptoms into nonexistence. I will readily face the argument that her dystonia was some sort of genetic time bomb just waiting to go off, and the timing of the vaccine was a coincidence. But don't try and tell me this is psychogenic. Psychogenic dystonia is a result of severe depression, anxiety, and/or existing personality disorders. The Dystonia Foundation themselves say that:

Given the complexities of the diagnosis of dystonia in general, the diagnosis of psychogenic dystonia can only be made by a physician with considerable experience in the field of dystonia and other abnormal movement disorders, often working in partnership with a psychiatric expert in conversion disorders. Patients must be evaluated several times or over a prolonged period before a definitive diagnosis of psychogenic dystonia can be made. A single psychiatric interview is not sufficient to demonstrate the underlying psychiatric dysfunction.

The group of doctors who came to the conclusion that her dystonia was psychogenic based on less than 5 minutes of video footage are playing a political game. It is not possible for them to come to that conclusion, and they should have said so when they were asked. But their entire goal with this assessment was damage control--when else would a group of doctors voluntarily start diagnosing patients via video, for free?--and once asked, it would be career suicide for them to conclude otherwise.

I am getting personal because I have experience being dismissed by doctors for political reasons. You are doing the exact same thing my pediatrician did when she told me my son doesn't actually have chronic diarrhea. She only narrowly missed trying to tell me that was psychological on his part too. You are not "seeking facts" to understand her condition, you are finding ways to pretend she doesn't have a condition. I can accept that it might be a coincidental case of dystonia. I will not let you try and claim that it's all in her head.

Oh, and

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Skepticism is healthy, and you should welcome challenges to your beliefs. When your point of view is challenged, either you will find that you are correct and thus your view is strengthened, or you find that you are incorrect and thus you change your view. In either case you are improved by it.

Don't fucking patronize me. I know what it's like to view science as a religion and pretend it's healthy skepticism. My point of view was challenged, and I found I was incorrect. I've switched sides, and I'm not coming back.

I know nothing I say is ever going to convince you, because nothing anyone said on this topic would have convinced me either. I was so much better at being skeptical than they were, you see. But I say it anyway, just like people kept saying it to me, because that's all I can do. Somebody's always listening, even if it's not people like me.

[Pico and ME]

Bravo!

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That's a fair numbers-to-numbers comparison.

Thanks. I was trying to be as fair as possible.

Everyone's got to make their own call about their own risk level. But it's not a game of Russian Roulette, individual behavior does play a role.

Absolutely! But it's hard to even begin to get a sense of what a personal risk level might be when articles like the one posted above can put such a sensational spin on the overall numbers.

[xoxoxoBruce]

And you don't have a crystal ball. Try as you might, to send your kid down the right path, they'll live their own life. This is just one of the choices you have to make about preparing them.

[Clodfobble]

Sensationalism doesn't generally help, I agree. But sometimes sensationalism can be an understandable response to the number of people in denial--people who, for example, can and do claim that the dozens of deaths were all completely coincidental. Sometimes it's useful to bring up the healthy girl who dropped dead an hour later, because it's harder to write off. The extremes help prove the middle ground.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

No, let's back up. I'm accepting this woman's problem, and I am only pissed because you are not. Maybe her dystonia wasn't triggered by the vaccine, that's certainly a possibility.

You have changed your mind! This is HUGE! Originally you said:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble post 395

A routine flu vaccination triggered a severe, permanent neurological reaction in this otherwise healthy woman.

Now you say:

I will readily face the argument that her dystonia was some sort of genetic time bomb just waiting to go off, and the timing of the vaccine was a coincidence.

*kisses*

We are in agreement.

But don't try and tell me this is psychogenic. Psychogenic dystonia is a result of severe depression, anxiety, and/or existing personality disorders.

Wait. You are against diagnosis that doesn't come from direct examination. How is it that you have made this conclusion? Against your own counsel, you are making sweeping assumptions about Desiree's condition.

The group of doctors who came to the conclusion that her dystonia was psychogenic based on less than 5 minutes of video footage are playing a political game. It is not possible for them to come to that conclusion, and they should have said so when they were asked. But their entire goal with this assessment was damage control--when else would a group of doctors voluntarily start diagnosing patients via video, for free?--and once asked, it would be career suicide for them to conclude otherwise.

You would have to be an expert on dystonia to say what conclusion they could draw. Are you? I am not an expert, but I can easily imagine how the video could have evidence that experts can see, that may not have even been seen by the original doctors; who may or may not have been experts in dystonia themselves (we don't know).

You are not "seeking facts" to understand her condition, you are finding ways to pretend she doesn't have a condition. I can accept that it might be a coincidental case of dystonia. I will not let you try and claim that it's all in her head.

On the contrary, I *am* seeking facts and will *only* allow *facts* in my understanding of the situation. I am not claiming it's in her head. I'm claiming that's possible, maybe even probable, based on what we know.

I know you are angry about your own situation. It seems to inform you on everything you see on the topic. You're like a woman I met, who just knew that Clarence Thomas sexually harassed Anita Hill, because a black man had sexually harassed her. Q.E.D.? Not so fast. I am sorry for your situation and what you have gone through, and I understand that your experiences inform you in ways I am not informed. However, all that only matters in your own case. In other cases, it proves little to nothing.

I know nothing I say is ever going to convince you, because nothing anyone said on this topic would have convinced me either.

You want to change my mind? Come up with an argument better than "Sure as fuck." Draw real causal relationships. I cannot defend against consistent, logical argument. That is the only thing that really changes my mind, and by the way, it happens all the time when I am discussing things with people who make such arguments.

I have a google news alert set for desiree jennings. I will post any updates I find, no matter whose "side" they seem to be on.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I am not claiming it's in her head. I'm claiming that's possible, maybe even probable, based on what we know.

You have changed your mind! This is HUGE! Originally you said:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

She isn't making it up, but it's in her head.

Now you say:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I am not claiming it's in her head.

*kisses*

We are in agreement.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You would have to be an expert on dystonia to say what conclusion they could draw. Are you? I am not an expert, but I can easily imagine how the video could have evidence that experts can see, that may not have even been seen by the original doctors; who may or may not have been experts in dystonia themselves (we don't know).

You misunderstood, I am not saying which conclusion they must draw, I am saying it is impossible for them to have come to any conclusion, and they should have admitted that. I do not find it imaginable that a video clip could have subtle evidence for experts to find when the Dystonia Foundation says that multiple, extended psychiatric evaluations are necessary before reaching the conclusion they say they reached in five minutes of video. It's unethical and irresponsible for doctors who haven't examined her to announce to the press that she doesn't have what her doctor says she has.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Wait. You are against diagnosis that doesn't come from direct examination. How is it that you have made this conclusion? Against your own counsel, you are making sweeping assumptions about Desiree's condition.

Her doctor did give her a direct examination. He diagnosed her with dystonia. Until I hear *facts* otherwise, that's the conclusion I'm sticking with.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I know you are angry about your own situation. It seems to inform you on everything you see on the topic. You're like a woman I met, who just knew that Clarence Thomas sexually harassed Anita Hill, because a black man had sexually harassed her. Q.E.D.? Not so fast. I am sorry for your situation and what you have gone through, and I understand that your experiences inform you in ways I am not informed. However, all that only matters in your own case. In other cases, it proves little to nothing.

I have been trying to honestly evaluate whether my distrust has unfairly spread, and I don't believe it has. Your friend was harassed by a different man. Merck Pharmaceuticals makes the Gardasil vaccine, and the MMR vaccine, among most other childhood vaccines. While it's true that "prior bad acts" are often not allowed to affect judgment in a court of law, I don't think it's on the same level of judging an entirely separate entity on the actions of another. I believe Merck to be an untrustworthy and corrupt company, who does not adequately research the safety of their vaccines before rushing them through FDA approval, and I will judge all their products, research, and actions with that in mind.

[Undertoad]

Heh heh, well played. Apparently we are both guilty of a little rhetoric.

[Undertoad]

Hoax, self-hoax, or evolving symptoms?

[Undertoad]

Generation Rescue shipping her to their LA doctors. Her speech sounds much better here.

[Clodfobble]

Well at least we now know what Hitler would have thought about Desiree Jennings.

I find this video silly, to be honest. (edit: the first video) It basically compares three clips, claiming all three are significantly different. Except in clip 2 she is specifically saying the tongue/neck problem is new, so it doesn't seem that she's trying to hide anything. Maybe the focus of muscular spasms can shift around in real dystonia, maybe they can't, I don't know. If they can't, that would certainly be evidence that it's psychological, though still not necessarily a "lie" as the videomaker implies.

2 and 3 look the same to me; the video creator is claiming her grammar is somehow affected now when it wasn't before. But I don't find the phrase "It started with me not being able to eat without passing out" to be at all unusual. Maybe that's just because I'm from Texas, people talk like that down here.

And yeah, the video loses a lot of credibility by quoting Hitler, putting "cheerleader" in scare quotes (what--she's not really a cheerleader either?,) and overtly mocking her speech pattern.

Like I said, if the muscle spasms can't shift focus in clinical dystonia, then maybe that really was the only clue they needed to declare it was psychological. But it seems to me that a disorder of unpredictable muscle movement would cause the muscle groups to move... unpredictably.

[Clodfobble]

You do see where this is going, right? If her symptoms can be improved, "mom4education" and those like her will say it is proof she was faking all along. If her symptoms can't, they will triumphantly point to it as proof that these treatments they're using on autistic kids don't really work.

[Undertoad]

The Inside Edition segment says she was training to be a Redskins cheerleader. Since then every report has said she IS a Redskins cheerleader. She's actually an "Ambassador", which means she doesn't cheer on the field but goes around the stadium greeting fans and stuff.

http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Desiree_59767.jsp

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You do see where this is going, right? If her symptoms can be improved, "mom4education" and those like her will say it is proof she was faking all along. If her symptoms can't, they will triumphantly point to it as proof that these treatments they're using on autistic kids don't really work.