Anatomy of a hang - Page 3

Kitsune · 03-22-2006, 08:44 AM

Keeps us posted, UT. I'd be interested in how the new disk fairs, as it might be the solution to my shuttle issue.

Pie · 03-22-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That N-bridge fan, Pie, is a pet peeve of mine in motherboard designs. I can't believe manufacturers decided the best way to handle that problem was to put a dinky, weak fan right where all the dust in the system will flow and clog it up. This MB has a heat sink there, much better idea.

Yep. That was a sucky motherboard, alright. Maybe one of these days we'll get around to replacing it. Right after we finish the MythTV box.

tw · 03-22-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So far so good - the new drive is in, partitioned, formatted and is now getting all the data from the old drive, and -- no hangs in hours.

Were you able to recover the 'corrupted' files? If so, how?

Undertoad · 03-22-2006, 12:22 PM

I didn't need those particular files, so I just deleted them by deleting their parent directory from an explorer window. It could have just been coincidence that the hang happened when "revisiting" those particular files.

Even now, if this fixes the problem, it's hard to figure out what really happened (and not worth the time to diagnose more completely). It was probably the drive failing, but still, Windows should fail more gracefully when faced with a resource that's having trouble. It surprised me when the system hung even when I took virtual memory duties away from that drive. I could see a failing drive causing an OS a headache when it's swapping to it, but when doing more "routine" I/O, just reading files or folders, it shouldn't just lose its place that badly.

Maybe the drive was failing harder and drawing too much power in spikes, and thus causing other hardware problems?

busterb · 03-22-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Tester cannot test for all that a meter does. A best power supply test is when fully under load - in the system. A power supply disconnected cannot be properly tested. Also note voltages - the numbers. Numbers are not the published ATX limits. I asked for numbers - not the subjective "power supply is good" - for this reason.

Tw. Belive it or not but I went to electronic school years ago. And have maybe more meters laying around than most folks. Meters lie. How many people think even know how to calibrate there meter? Are you telling me that the tester doesn't simulate a load? Well maybe not, but my son said was bad. I said no because I've taken readings w/voa meter. Anyhow a new PS fixed it.

tw · 03-22-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busterb

Tw. Belive it or not but I went to electronic school years ago. And have maybe more meters laying around than most folks. Meters lie. How many people think even know how to calibrate there meter? Are you telling me that the tester doesn't simulate a load? Well maybe not, but my son said was bad. I said no because I've taken readings w/voa meter. Anyhow a new PS fixed it.

If a tester provided a significant load, then tester would be too hot to handle with comfort. It would be a 300 watt hot plate. Testers apply minimal load to meet startup requirements for power supplies (some - not all - supplies need a minimal load to operate).

Yes, meters do not necessarily report RMS voltage: they lie. But that is what makes many meters so good at identifying bad power supplies. Again, note numbers provided because of how meters typically work.

I am more than just a tech. We designed power supplies even in the 1970s. Have even demonstrated on a system that was intermittent - the supply was not providing power as claimed. System would boot and mostly work. And then we put a meter on it. Quite obvious that a clone power supply could not service the load - even though the owner insisted supply was replaced and now working. Meter demonstrated otherwise. Been doing this stuff for too many decades. I prefer an oscilloscope because it says faster what I want to learn. But the meter is how field problems are identified or eliminated quickly as a suspect.

A $15 tester, among other things, does not provide a sufficient load for testing. It can declare a power supply bad but it cannot declare a power supply as good.

BTW, one final point. Notice that tester did not get hot and did not contain fans. Fans would be required if tester sufficiently loaded a power supply. Just another reason why power supply is best tested (and tested faster) still inside the computer. Just another example of why 'learning why' makes those meters a so superior solution.

BTW, do you still have a VTVM? I have a wee bit of knowledge and experience.

Undertoad · 03-22-2006, 01:17 PM

Spoke too soon, it just hung again.

tw · 03-22-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Maybe the drive was failing harder and drawing too much power in spikes, and thus causing other hardware problems?

Disk drives draw so little power as to be totally irrelevant. To cause power problems, drive would draw on the order of 100 watts - become so hot as to burn parts.

Disk drive computer talks to motherboard computer using a fixed set of command - similar to how networking works. There is nothing electrical in a disk drive that would hang a computer. Except when a computer is not so resilient - booting. Have never seen a disk drive hang any NT system except during boot. During simplistic boot programs, the software may sit waiting for a response forever - a hang. Have seen tasks hang due to a disk drive problem. Have seen NT slow to a crawl due to a bad disk. But never had an NT system lock up so that Task Manager would not operate - except when Task Manager could not load from that drive.

Marginal conditions can occur on disk hardware causing a drive's computer to not respond or reply to commands. It is why software designed to test hardware (ie from IBM) is so much better at testing disk hardware; rather than software designed to test Windows interface to hardware (Microsoft).

This being only background information - when that next drive fails. Meanwhile a drive failure should have been recorded in Microsoft's event (system) log. Find it using HELP. Also the drive hardware (an IBM creation) would have data to indicate ongoing failures. Forgot what they call that function - smart something. Just another reason why IBM hardware test software could have been more useful - I believe it is now a Toshiba product.

Undertoad · 03-22-2006, 01:29 PM

Whaddya know, the event log.

I should have known about that! I take it back about Mr. Gates.

The event log has numerous bad block errors listed for drive D, even after the drive has been replaced. Therefore these errors are probably not actual errors, but a failing controller thinking they ARE errors.

tw · 03-22-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The event log has numerous bad block errors listed for drive D, even after the drive has been replaced. Therefore these errors are probably not actual errors, but a failing controller thinking they ARE errors.

The controller is actually nothing more than some drivers and receivers. However the chip that contains that 'controller' can be tested. First do something that constantly accesses the drive. This is what hardware diagnostics are for. Once you have established a pattern, and then selectively heat different sections with a hairdryer on high. Yes it must be that hot to a human and yet that cool to a computer. The offending part (i.e. semiconductor, cable connector, etc) identifies itself via increased errors with temperature.

As noted earlier, heat is a diagnostic tool.

Drive D is the original offending drive? Well, it may have bad drivers/receivers on its computer board. It might cause motherboard computer to not communicate with a C: drive computer. IDE bus is a network cable where each computer - drive computer from each disk and the motherboard computer all share time talking on that cable. Therefore problem could be slave drive computer, master drive computer, south bridge IC on motherboard, etc. This is what the hairdryer does. To make intermittents more frequent by applying heat. Find failures by running parts hotter - then do not fix those parts with more fans.

Hairdryer that causes any computer part to fail - that part is 100% defective. And that part will get worse with age.

busterb · 03-22-2006, 07:40 PM

cold spray works the other way. If ya think it's hot give it a shot of freeze ass.

Quote:

BTW, do you still have a VTVM? I have a wee bit of knowledge and experience.

Naw I had a clean up one day and found a sucker to give it to. Damn tubes. Once I was working, "playing" with an old tube set and didn't see my hickory stick. Stuck my hand in to shake a tube and burned holes in 3 fingers. Never worked on another tube set.

Kitsune · 03-23-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busterb

cold spray works the other way. If ya think it's hot give it a shot of freeze ass.

It should also be noted giving someone a shot of freeze on the ass makes for good office prankage. Freez-It was more often used to give someone a case of frostbite as a joke than to test components.

So, UT, any verdict?

Undertoad · 03-23-2006, 09:29 AM

Yes, Newegg overnight shipping rocks!

It doesn't make sense to isolate which particular chip is having trouble because A) they're all on the same board, and the fix is the same: replace the whole board; and B) the parts are so close together now, that heating one particular part without heating any other is nearly impossible. At the least it requires that the board be completely de-cased and set up completely differently.

So I've ordered a new motherboard from Newegg. It's only $102, so what the hell.

The problem is that my old board is too old and they don't sell it any longer. So I had to get a new board. But my processor is pretty old too and I sure would like to get something that supports SATA since I have a big old SATA drive just sitting here.

So I decided to get a much newer board with more capabilities. Of course that meant changing out the video card too, because AGP is now out in favor of PCI Express. There's another $150.

And of course the processor. Doesn't make sense not to buy a 64-bit processor today; and if you get one with 1MB of cache you get another speed increase, so that makes sense. $215.

And well, it turns out that modern motherboards have a new 24-pin power connector. And there's a new feature of video cards called SLI where you can tie two video cards together, if you have the power capability for it; SO I got a new $80 power supply as well.

And with the beauty of Newegg overnight and rush processing, it's on a FedEx truck right now, headed my way.

By tonight the old problem should be completely gone, unless it's something *really* funky in software. And then, I'll have an entirely new set of problems: making sure all the drivers are in line and updated so the thing runs right with the new hardware.

I think, at one point in this whole mess, I complained about people buying a whole new computer to fix their comptuer issues. This will be almost what I will have done. Of course it's mostly out of the urge/need to upgrade anyway, I rationalize.

busterb · 03-23-2006, 10:33 AM

Show us the shopping list, in case some of us should get an upgrade attack. Who ever forbid.

Undertoad · 03-23-2006, 11:05 AM

MSI K8N SLI-F Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

MSI NX6800GS-TD256E Lite Geforce 6800GS 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-480 ATX12V 480W Power Supply - Retail

AMD Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego 1GHz HT Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3700CFBOX - Retail

03-23-2006, 10:33 AM	#44
busterb NSABFD Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: MS. usa Posts: 3,908	Show us the shopping list, in case some of us should get an upgrade attack. Who ever forbid. __________________ I've haven't left very deep footprints in the sands of time. But, boy I've left a bunch.

03-22-2006, 08:44 AM	#31
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Keeps us posted, UT. I'd be interested in how the new disk fairs, as it might be the solution to my shuttle issue.

03-22-2006, 12:22 PM	#34
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I didn't need those particular files, so I just deleted them by deleting their parent directory from an explorer window. It could have just been coincidence that the hang happened when "revisiting" those particular files. Even now, if this fixes the problem, it's hard to figure out what really happened (and not worth the time to diagnose more completely). It was probably the drive failing, but still, Windows should fail more gracefully when faced with a resource that's having trouble. It surprised me when the system hung even when I took virtual memory duties away from that drive. I could see a failing drive causing an OS a headache when it's swapping to it, but when doing more "routine" I/O, just reading files or folders, it shouldn't just lose its place that badly. Maybe the drive was failing harder and drawing too much power in spikes, and thus causing other hardware problems?

03-22-2006, 01:17 PM	#37
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Spoke too soon, it just hung again.

03-22-2006, 01:29 PM	#39
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Whaddya know, the event log. I should have known about that! I take it back about Mr. Gates. The event log has numerous bad block errors listed for drive D, even after the drive has been replaced. Therefore these errors are probably not actual errors, but a failing controller thinking they ARE errors.

03-23-2006, 09:29 AM	#43
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yes, Newegg overnight shipping rocks! It doesn't make sense to isolate which particular chip is having trouble because A) they're all on the same board, and the fix is the same: replace the whole board; and B) the parts are so close together now, that heating one particular part without heating any other is nearly impossible. At the least it requires that the board be completely de-cased and set up completely differently. So I've ordered a new motherboard from Newegg. It's only $102, so what the hell. The problem is that my old board is too old and they don't sell it any longer. So I had to get a new board. But my processor is pretty old too and I sure would like to get something that supports SATA since I have a big old SATA drive just sitting here. So I decided to get a much newer board with more capabilities. Of course that meant changing out the video card too, because AGP is now out in favor of PCI Express. There's another $150. And of course the processor. Doesn't make sense not to buy a 64-bit processor today; and if you get one with 1MB of cache you get another speed increase, so that makes sense. $215. And well, it turns out that modern motherboards have a new 24-pin power connector. And there's a new feature of video cards called SLI where you can tie two video cards together, if you have the power capability for it; SO I got a new $80 power supply as well. And with the beauty of Newegg overnight and rush processing, it's on a FedEx truck right now, headed my way. By tonight the old problem should be completely gone, unless it's something really funky in software. And then, I'll have an entirely new set of problems: making sure all the drivers are in line and updated so the thing runs right with the new hardware. I think, at one point in this whole mess, I complained about people buying a whole new computer to fix their comptuer issues. This will be almost what I will have done. Of course it's mostly out of the urge/need to upgrade anyway, I rationalize.

03-23-2006, 11:05 AM	#45
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	MSI K8N SLI-F Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail MSI NX6800GS-TD256E Lite Geforce 6800GS 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail Antec TRUEPOWERII TPII-480 ATX12V 480W Power Supply - Retail AMD Athlon 64 3700+ San Diego 1GHz HT Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3700CFBOX - Retail

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)