What is it to be Christian ?

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The answer is that God designed biological mechanisms.
"The trinity" is a crude, probably inaccurate reflection of the vast complexity of God.

So would you say that the attempt to hash the concepts of ID and the Trinity together has revealed that the Trinity is the faulty concept?
This is exactly how a productive resolution of cognitive dissonance between man-made philosophical constructs is supposed to work.

[mrnoodle]

Any attempt to cram God into manmade limitations is faulty. But I'm still not sure why the Trinity and ID must be mutually exclusive.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Any attempt to cram God into manmade limitations is faulty.

I agree, and I'm not picky about where I apply that. (Bible, I'm looking at you...)

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But I'm still not sure why the Trinity and ID must be mutually exclusive.

I'm not sure they are, but I've never heard an explanation of how they relate to one another.

[mrnoodle]

Ahh, but there's a difference between the bible and selfmade philosophies. The bible is a collection of writings that spans many hundreds of years and purports to be the inspired word of God. People have been tortured and killed for even possessing it. Horrible things have been done in its name, but those things directly contradict the message contained within.

There are older documents and there are other documents that have been the basis for religions. But nothing else has had the longevity and impact combined. In the absence of any quantitative "proof" of God, the fact that so many people have tried to stifle the gospel over the last 2,000 years and failed so miserably to stop its spread is evidence that the message in it contains real power. I hardly think that so many authors over so many centuries could have successfully pulled off a hoax of that magnitude. In the end, the only thing that proves the scripture is itself, and the impact that it has on individuals.

As far as how the Trinity and ID relate to each other, I don't know if they do, or how. I don't know of anything in either concept that precludes the other, nor that proves the other.

[Flint]

What you've said is exactly what most organized religions claim.
And it perpetuates a situation where they are always trying to kill each other.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Flint

What you've said is exactly what most organized religions claim.
And it perpetuates a situation where they are always trying to kill each other.

People who pervert and twist their religion for some sort of benefit to themselves are the ones who are always trying to kill others.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

What you've said is exactly what most organized religions claim.
And it perpetuates a situation where they are always trying to kill each other.

What I've said is in the bible. People who kill in the name of God are not following Christ. End of point.

Really.

NOTHING in the gospel of Christ perpetuates war among humans. Not a single word.

There's no more to be said about it.

Whenever anyone gets to the point that they have nowhere to look but at the pure doctrine itself, they get nervous and start shotgunning out the atheist talking points about the crusades, witch burning, and all that. Christ forgave. Every time, no matter what was done. That was his example. When confronted with the person of Satan himself, Christ simply resisted. In fact, his peaceful nature is the reason why the Jews didn't believe he was Messiah. They were looking for a Mohammedlike military leader.

And what I said is not said by any other religion. There are messianic figures in several. Lots of origin stories, etc. But only one offers a 1-to-1 relationship with the creator of the universe, without intermediary, without limit, without strings.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

End of point.

You haven't understood my point: any "one true book" claim facilitates something that is worth dying for, worth killing for. See: history of mankind.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

You haven't understood my point: any "one true book" claim facilitates something that is worth dying for, worth killing for. See: history of mankind.

"one true book" is worth dying to protect. But not to protect the book. God will have his word out there whether you like it or not. If you die because of your faith in God, you are truly a believer. No more doubts about hypocrisy or anything else. What if, in the "possibly nearer than you could imagine" future, it becomes a crime to own a Bible (for bonus points, name one of the 3 places wehre this has occurred in the last 40 years), you are essentially asked to revoke your faith or die. What if those who publicly revoke get a mark of somekind to render them "acceptable" to the government. Now they can go back to work, watch TV, travel around and do the World Beer Tour at Old Chicago. We will finally make ourselves the true secular humanists we were always meant to be.

But there's a vague rumble on the horizon. A sense of impending doom. Finally, after all teh locos on the street corners (funny, haven't seen them lately) have been bugging us about this, you'd think they'd want to come out and prophecy about it.

Rumblerumblerumble.

I would like to say that I truly believe that a similar scenario is set to occur. I don't buy any dates put out by nutbag TV preachers. I don't buy the numerology nor the crystal bullshit. It. Is. Coming. That's the only reason these fucktarded Xtians want anything to do with you -- they're genuinely trying (in ever more annoying ways) to make it so that you will miss the reign of the Antichrist.

Because he (whether he is USA, Israel, Syria, whatever..it doesn't matter. He might be Ronald Reagan popped out of his pez dispenser to battle the mighty zorg. But when God himself comes to smite the ever living SMITATIONS of smite out of him, that's it. End game. If you have the mark, you're gone. And I'm sure there will be many many heartbreaking stories of people who go, "But I never had proof of your existence until now!"

We had proof in many many ways. They were ways only discernable to the heart, so those who discounted such weak emotions missed out. But it was written in the bible for those who read. If the critics of God's word spend a friggin weekend on the Chicago Tribune, The building would be razed within a month. No scrutiny more laserlike has ever been focused on a single document, and had the life sucked out of the text by people seeking to destroy God one snide comment at a time.

Anyway, this doesn't really affect my life. My life is to be good to others in all the little ways that you can. You be her shoulder to cry on , you help move the furniture after his divorce. You write a check that seems unaffordable adn give it to them for their kids' college fund. God blesses that.

You see a man or woman on the street, give em a coat and money for some decent drugs or booze. If you don't want em high, put them in your car and drive to Perkins. They're used to seeing em there anyway, and they know my card is good. Got leftovers? Hand em to the bag lady. What. You're going to eat 3 bites of the sweet and sour pork for lunch and go "meh". That lady is going to eat like a Queen. I'm running out of handme down coats btw. If it's a cold winter, time to go pick some up that are good enough to resist -0 winds.

Do other people who don't believe in God do the same thing? Presumably so. But the selfish satisfaction of "I'm a good person, I did this" and the slightly more palatable buzz of seeing a kid smile at Christmas have one extra benefit for a Christian: I might screw up later tonight, or I might not make it to the car. But I feel the presence of the Lord in my life right now, and it feels GOOD to be doing exactly what he told his disciples to do 1000 years ago. You can see a glimpse of heaven through that stuff.

That's why drugs are bad for me. I tend to see hell. Not "see" as in shrooms-style, but see as in understand. And when that happens, it is a long, long, long time before any but the mildest ganja will give me the slight, comfortable buzz that kills my heart racing at what I feel might be true.

It really is an important issue to me. Personally. You can take your debates about abortion and rights and gays and all that stuff and throw it off a cliff. I don't listen to em except for when I need enough anger to make it up a bad hill when bike riding. I Want to Know the Heart of the Living God, and I Want to Serve Him. I am not after your children or your government.

I'm still bogged down in sin, but God keeps coming back with jjjjjjjjjust onnnnnne more chance. I joke about religion because I want to "be one of the guys". I throw the metal horns at shows and paint a cross on my forehead to look metal, even though doing those things feels like it hurts the spirit living inside of me. Lessens it, perhaps.

So before you come at me for my judgementalist, legalistic, archaic notions about the supreme being, understand that I wage a daily battle with my old nature (which is very, VERY good at things that are not of God), and I fail. Twice before breakfast, some days. I call someone an asshole. I sluff off at work. I keep smoking cigarettes even thuogh it would make my mama happy to know that I quit and will add that many more years to my life. I look at porn on the computer, and it shoots down any and all defenses I have, sexually. I get horny, I have to make out. jSuddenly I'm not keeping my eye on what I feel is good and right. I'm trying to get my horn scratched.

Afterwards, I feel the lapse in judgement I allowed, and am utterly tired. So tired of not being able to say no to (drugs, video games, food, sex, whatever your addiction is). Please help me find a way, God.

Suddenly, the way becomes clear. Oh my God. But it requires sacrifice. You have to put aside your desires and lusts and become a new creature. You don't get to ease in over the course of months or years. Here is your decision time. What do you pick? I pick God, of course, but fail miserably at making the necessary changes in my life. I just can't let go of that control. God, everyone I talk to says you don't exist, and that life is about biting off as much as you can chew in the short time available, and the devil take the hindmost. Wouldn't I like to fuck that guy's wife? He'll never know, and it's just for fun. She even gave you her number. You said something really shitty to your mom again this morning, and you knew she was having a hard time with her best friend's death. You should apologize. But you don't. Hey, weed! I really need a bowl right now, I'm stressing at work.

Rinse, repeat.

If you think actively being a Christian means standing in judgement over OTHER people, you're looking at the wrong people. It's not about guilt, it's about striving for excellence and failing, then letting the grace of God pull you back up. He "saves" you, yeah. But he strenghtens you, comforts you, and teaches you. You can have your Buddhas sitting in temples, your priests in their little...priest box things...and your coldly comforting atheist bible. I am seeking (and, rarely, do find) an actual relationship with the creator of everything in the universe.

That is more hardcore than anything you can think of, and I can think of soem hardcore shit.

That's my personal story as it stands right now. Flamers get a laminated symbol of my utter dismissal of their jibes. I jsut have to eat a can of chili and make some.

[lumberjim]

With the support of the "moderates" who give them a legitimate platform and foot the bill. - jinx

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

With the support of the "moderates" who give them a legitimate platform and foot the bill. - jinx

Oh yeah, I forgot about my donation to the Lebanese Forces last month

I suppose that Americans have heard of metaphors ?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

While Christ was remarkably peaceable, he was no pacifist. It's clear He knew perfectly well what He was doing would make serious trouble, and it's evident He thought it worth that trouble; for instance see Luke 21:5-10 and other verses. Luke 22:36 also: "Let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one." (RSV) -- though here the context seems more one of armed self defense, with an aside glance at what a sword was going for in the Palestine army-surplus market. And there's Matthew 10:34: "I have not come to bring peace but a sword."

[Urbane Guerrilla]

History tells us none of this was exactly metaphorical, but about as bloody a reality as anyone would care to, uh, enjoy. It works as a metaphor, and as well as history.

Give me ONE example of Jesus fighting and drawing blood .

Chucking the traders from the temple doesn't count .