War and those who wage it - Page 3

regular.joe · 01-14-2008, 02:46 PM

Team America is just a dick. Get over it, or not.

Undertoad · 01-14-2008, 03:37 PM

Either Saddam was bluffing or there was a complicated bluff of Saddam by his own guys. If a dude is whacking people like Tony Soprano, you might just tell him what he wants to know, rather than the truth.

If you're Saddam's top nuke guy, you might not even tell anyone that the program is a fake -- and so they may all believe it's real, and all that belief may be picked up by intelligence. You may even have a payroll of guys whose job it is to carry test tubes from point A to point B.

lookout123 · 01-14-2008, 03:40 PM

don't be ridiculous. GWB knew it was all a bluff, he just didn't want us to know that he knew what they didn't know which was that it was all a bluff.

classicman · 01-14-2008, 03:52 PM

He knew that he knew? Or did he know that he knew it was a bluff? Or did he think he knew that he knew that his guy thought that HE knew so that he made him think he knew so he wouldn't get killed?

lookout123 · 01-14-2008, 04:04 PM

he knew. ya know?

classicman · 01-14-2008, 06:43 PM

Ibby · 01-14-2008, 10:16 PM

From what I've heard, the whole intel community believed that their intel on WMDs was accurate - that there were WMDs in iraq.
I'm thinking UT's hypothesis is more or less the way it worked. Whether the higher-ups knew the truth (that there were none) or not, the grunts drank the administration kool-aid, and our intel found plenty of information indicating the existance of WMDs. This worked out well until, uh, we went in and found nothing. I'll bet a bunch of them are as surprised as anybody else.

regular.joe · 01-14-2008, 10:25 PM

It's got to be tough to be the pres.....I can see it now.

"Do they have the shit?" "Hell yea, they got the shit." "Are you sure they got the shit, cause I'm gonna start some shit." "fuck yea, we're sure. They got the shit."

3 years later.....

...inside a thought bubble. " Dammit! I'm in deep shit."

All in all, I'm glad it wasn't me making that call.

classicman · 01-14-2008, 10:28 PM

So Ibram, it was ok to go in there because we knew there were WMD's, right?

regular.joe · 01-14-2008, 10:35 PM

No, it was o.k. because we are Dicks. Saddam was an ass hole. Dicks fuck ass holes. That's just how it works.

(if you can't tell, I"m in a fairly flippant and sarcastic mood today.

classicman · 01-14-2008, 10:39 PM

In my opinion, you earned it. Oh and thats not what my d*ck f*cks. just to be clear thats NOT how it works over here. just my personal preference.

Ibby · 01-14-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

So Ibram, it was ok to go in there because we knew there were WMD's, right?

It would be wrong even if he DID have them.

But it was wronger after the UN weapons inspectors didnt find anything.

classicman · 01-15-2008, 07:54 AM

I thought thats how you felt, but wanted to recheck.

Undertoad · 01-15-2008, 09:06 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/spr....02/index.html

Quote:

Let me begin by playing a tape for you. What you're about to hear is a conversation that my government monitored. It takes place on November 26 of last year, on the day before United Nations teams resumed inspections in Iraq.

The conversation involves two senior officers, a colonel and a brigadier general, from Iraq's elite military unit, the Republican Guard.

[Following is a U.S. translation of that taped conversation.]

GEN: Yeah.

COL: About this committee that is coming...

GEN: Yeah, yeah.

COL: ...with Mohamed ElBaradei [Director, International Atomic Energy Agency]

GEN: Yeah, yeah.

COL: Yeah.

GEN: Yeah?

COL: We have this modified vehicle.

GEN: Yeah.

COL: What do we say if one of them sees it?

GEN: You didn't get a modified... You don't have a modified...

COL: By God, I have one.

GEN: Which? From the workshop...?

COL: From the al-Kindi Company

GEN: What?

COL: From al-Kindi.

GEN: Yeah, yeah. I'll come to you in the morning. I have some comments. I'm worried you all have something left.

COL: We evacuated everything. We don't have anything left.

GEN: I will come to you tomorrow.

COL: Okay.

GEN: I have a conference at Headquarters, before I attend the conference I will come to you.

Now unfortunately that is from Colin Powell's presentation to the UN a month before the war, and much of the other things Powell presented were discredited. Still, it wasn't him talking on that conversation.

Same debate for five years, but this still bugs me. "Evacuated everything" November 2002.

But you know, it really doesn't matter if he had them or not. If a guy holds you up in the street and says he has a gun in his jacket, it doesn't matter if it's a gun or if it's only his finger. The threat is the part that matters; you don't play odds with your life.

And on the world stage, the rule is, when you get those weapons you have to be very strict and careful about the statements you make about them. And here is where Israel is the ideal: they have nukes, but didn't even *admit* it, for decades, much less brandish them about with threats of destruction. That is how you must behave; you don't get to both threaten to have nukes, and also sponsor public events where you encourage the crowds to ritualistically chant "Death to America", or death to anyone, for that matter.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-15-2008, 11:41 AM

Though you do have to consider that Iraq and Iran have to show a front while Israel didn't. If Iraq and Iran were making nuclear weapons for defensive purpose, which was a good possibility, it would make sense that they would announce it.

If you get nuclear weapons to reassure that you will not be invaded, what is the point of not talking about those weapons? It is much like the situation with Russia in Dr. Strangelove if you've seen that.

If you are getting nuclear weapons just to have them or because you want to defend yourself but you don't need a front, then I will agree with you.

To further the point with your example. Why would he put his finger inside his jacket? To get attention? Maybe. But if it was because he felt threatened and was scared of being attacked (mugged) and put his finger in his jacket pretending it was a gun yelling "hey, don't fuck with me, I've got a gun", it is a little different scenario.

01-14-2008, 02:46 PM	#31
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	Team America is just a dick. Get over it, or not. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-14-2008, 03:40 PM	#33
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	don't be ridiculous. GWB knew it was all a bluff, he just didn't want us to know that he knew what they didn't know which was that it was all a bluff. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

01-14-2008, 03:52 PM	#34
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	He knew that he knew? Or did he know that he knew it was a bluff? Or did he think he knew that he knew that his guy thought that HE knew so that he made him think he knew so he wouldn't get killed? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-14-2008, 04:04 PM	#35
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	he knew. ya know? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

01-14-2008, 06:43 PM	#36
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	__________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-14-2008, 03:37 PM	#32
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Either Saddam was bluffing or there was a complicated bluff of Saddam by his own guys. If a dude is whacking people like Tony Soprano, you might just tell him what he wants to know, rather than the truth. If you're Saddam's top nuke guy, you might not even tell anyone that the program is a fake -- and so they may all believe it's real, and all that belief may be picked up by intelligence. You may even have a payroll of guys whose job it is to carry test tubes from point A to point B.

01-14-2008, 10:16 PM	#37
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	From what I've heard, the whole intel community believed that their intel on WMDs was accurate - that there were WMDs in iraq. I'm thinking UT's hypothesis is more or less the way it worked. Whether the higher-ups knew the truth (that there were none) or not, the grunts drank the administration kool-aid, and our intel found plenty of information indicating the existance of WMDs. This worked out well until, uh, we went in and found nothing. I'll bet a bunch of them are as surprised as anybody else. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

01-14-2008, 10:25 PM	#38
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	It's got to be tough to be the pres.....I can see it now. "Do they have the shit?" "Hell yea, they got the shit." "Are you sure they got the shit, cause I'm gonna start some shit." "fuck yea, we're sure. They got the shit." 3 years later..... ...inside a thought bubble. " Dammit! I'm in deep shit." All in all, I'm glad it wasn't me making that call. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-14-2008, 10:28 PM	#39
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	So Ibram, it was ok to go in there because we knew there were WMD's, right? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-14-2008, 10:35 PM	#40
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	No, it was o.k. because we are Dicks. Saddam was an ass hole. Dicks fuck ass holes. That's just how it works. (if you can't tell, I"m in a fairly flippant and sarcastic mood today. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-14-2008, 10:39 PM	#41
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	In my opinion, you earned it. Oh and thats not what my dck fcks. just to be clear thats NOT how it works over here. just my personal preference. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-15-2008, 07:54 AM	#43
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	I thought thats how you felt, but wanted to recheck. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

01-15-2008, 11:41 AM	#45
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Though you do have to consider that Iraq and Iran have to show a front while Israel didn't. If Iraq and Iran were making nuclear weapons for defensive purpose, which was a good possibility, it would make sense that they would announce it. If you get nuclear weapons to reassure that you will not be invaded, what is the point of not talking about those weapons? It is much like the situation with Russia in Dr. Strangelove if you've seen that. If you are getting nuclear weapons just to have them or because you want to defend yourself but you don't need a front, then I will agree with you. To further the point with your example. Why would he put his finger inside his jacket? To get attention? Maybe. But if it was because he felt threatened and was scared of being attacked (mugged) and put his finger in his jacket pretending it was a gun yelling "hey, don't fuck with me, I've got a gun", it is a little different scenario. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

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