Iraq is nearly over. BTW we won.

[regular.joe]

Every household in Iraq has always been able to posses one AK. Always.

What was the context of the video's you've seen? Do you know? Did the soldiers receive fire from the building, or structure being video tapped? All weapons would indeed be confiscated in that case, and handed back out when the situation is sorted out. No, I won't pretend it didn't happen, I also won't pretend that U.S. Soldiers enter an Iraqi household with the purpose of abusing the people living there and taking their fire arms. This simply does not happen.

How many of the civilian deaths in Iraq are non uniformed belligerents?

[Radar]

Belligerents? That's an interesting word to describe people who don't cooperate with an armed invasion force from a terrorist rogue nation that invaded them without justifiable cause....namely the USA.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

I've seen video of soldiers breaking down doors, shoving people to the floor, and taking all of the guns in the house ...

Ohhh, then I guess it MUST be true - puhlease.

Originally Posted by Radar

As far as the massacre, America is responsible for the deaths of at least 1 million Iraqi people and probably closer to 2 million. This is through 2 illegal invasions on the part of America, and bombing Iraq daily for 12 years, setting up illegal "no fly" zones, searching homes illegally...including those of the leader of their country, keeping Iraq from life saving medicines and food, destroying Iraq's ability to defend itself and thus allowing a flood of terrorists into their country, imprisoning people who have committed no crime, torturing them (sometimes to death), etc.

You keep spouting those exaggerated numbers ... Oh hell, throw in a few other reasons like global warming and some other BS - I'm sure you could claim more like 3 or 4 million. Why don't you just add "distraction or stress" and make America responsible for every death over there.

Yeah Iraq sure was defending itself when IT INVADED Kuwait - lol.

Torturing all those people who committed no crime - yeh - thats what we are there to do - just for the friggin fun of it too! We've got nothing better to do, do we?

Originally Posted by Radar

I don't know....

You should have just stopped there.

[regular.joe]

I don't care where I am in the world, when someone picks up a rifle and slings lead my way, they are called a belligerent.

Lets not pretend that all, or even a majority of the deaths in Iraq have been innocent bystanders. You pick up a rifle, you pick up the responsibility. Me, and everyone else who does.

As far as collateral non-combatants killed, those freedom fighters you are eluding to, have killed 10's of thousands more then the U.S. ever will.

It sounds to me like you might have to pick up a rifle and get on over to Iraq, or get on over to Iraq and pick up a rifle. They need lots of help over there. Hope to see you there.

[spudcon]

Radar speaks volumes for the flaw in libertarianism. Sadam Husein, and every other murdering dictator, has a right to kill, to torture, or whatever, because he is an individual, and his country is an individual country. If there is nothing illegal, there is no crime.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I don't care where I am in the world, when someone picks up a rifle and slings lead my way, they are called a belligerent.

Lets not pretend that all, or even a majority of the deaths in Iraq have been innocent bystanders. You pick up a rifle, you pick up the responsibility. Me, and everyone else who does.

As far as collateral non-combatants killed, those freedom fighters you are eluding to, have killed 10's of thousands more then the U.S. ever will.

It sounds to me like you might have to pick up a rifle and get on over to Iraq, or get on over to Iraq and pick up a rifle. They need lots of help over there. Hope to see you there.

Hey joe--

I like you. Your posts, including this one, display a clear thinking and an articulate voice. Respectfully, I want to ask you for some clarification on a couple things.

"someone who picks up a rifle and slings lead your way is called a belligerent"
"you pick up a rifle, you pick up the responsibility. Me and everyone else..."

Those are reasonable statements. And I agree with them. Here are my questions.

From your perspective that person who picks up a rifle (and the responsibility) and slings lead your way is an insurgent. What are you called from his perspective? Are you a belligerent?

What do you call yourself, who picks up a rifle (and the responsibility)?

From the perspective of that other person, what does he call himself?

I understand I'm asking (respectfully) for a considerable amount of speculation. I would appreciate it if you would indulge and enlighten me.

Thanks in advance.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by classicman

Ohhh, then I guess it MUST be true - puhlease.

Yes, generally speaking, when you see something happening, it's true. Perhaps in your warped little mind this isn't the case. Do you often hallucinate?

Originally Posted by classicman

You keep spouting those exaggerated numbers ...

No, I keep detailing real numbers. The 2003 invasion alone has resulted in a million Iraqi deaths.

Originally Posted by classicman

Oh hell, throw in a few other reasons like global warming and some other BS - I'm sure you could claim more like 3 or 4 million. Why don't you just add "distraction or stress" and make America responsible for every death over there.

Each and every single death in Iraq that has resulted from America's invasion of Iraq in 1991, the bombing and starvation of Iraq for 12 years, and the other illegal invasion of Iraq (including those by insurgents we allowed in) are America's fault.

Originally Posted by classicman

Yeah Iraq sure was defending itself when IT INVADED Kuwait - lol.

Actually Yes, Iraq was defending itself when it invaded Kuwait. Kuwait had been practicing slant drilling for years and was warned many times about stealing Iraqi oil, but they refused to stop. Iraq told them if they didn't stop, they'd be invaded. They still didn't stop. Iraq told America that they intended to invade Kuwait and America said it was none of our concern and we wouldn't get involved.

Originally Posted by classicman

Torturing all those people who committed no crime - yeh - thats what we are there to do - just for the friggin fun of it too! We've got nothing better to do, do we?

Ever heard of Abu Ghraib prison? The overwhelming majority of the people in that prison weren't guilty of anything...not even jay walking.

Originally Posted by classicman

You should have just stopped there.

You never should have started.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I don't care where I am in the world, when someone picks up a rifle and slings lead my way, they are called a belligerent.

Lets not pretend that all, or even a majority of the deaths in Iraq have been innocent bystanders. You pick up a rifle, you pick up the responsibility. Me, and everyone else who does.

As far as collateral non-combatants killed, those freedom fighters you are eluding to, have killed 10's of thousands more then the U.S. ever will.

It sounds to me like you might have to pick up a rifle and get on over to Iraq, or get on over to Iraq and pick up a rifle. They need lots of help over there. Hope to see you there.

America never belonged in Iraq. Not for one second. Not ever.

We are the invaders there. We are the offensive force of aggression and the Iraqi people who took up arms against us are defenders. Why would I go to Iraq? The only Americans there are traitors.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by spudcon

Radar speaks volumes for the flaw in libertarianism. Sadam Husein, and every other murdering dictator, has a right to kill, to torture, or whatever, because he is an individual, and his country is an individual country. If there is nothing illegal, there is no crime.

You're an idiot. I never said what Saddam Hussein did was ok. He was a murdering scumbag and he most certainly committed crimes. That doesn't give America the authority to intervene. It doesn't mean Americans should die over there. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with defending America, and nothing to do with "liberating oppressed Iraqi people". It had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction either. America isn't the police of the world or the enforcer of UN sanctions.

I wish freedom for the people of Iraq and the people of everywhere else. They must win their own freedom, and I must win mine.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Radar

You're an idiot. I never said what Saddam Hussein did was ok. He was a murdering scumbag and he most certainly committed crimes. That doesn't give America the authority to intervene. It doesn't mean Americans should die over there. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with defending America, and nothing to do with "liberating oppressed Iraqi people". It had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction either. America isn't the police of the world or the enforcer of UN sanctions.

I wish freedom for the people of Iraq and the people of everywhere else. They must win their own freedom, and I must win mine.

It is posts like this that ring true that keeps me from dismissing you, Radar.

I don't like the tenor of your attacks in other recent posts, but I can't argue with this one.

You are completely correct here. Well spoken.

[Radar]

If you knew the history between those I was dealing the intellectual smackdown to, you'd understand why I took a particular tone. We have a long and rich history of mutual hatred. I hate dishonesty and those who support the insane policies of the Bush administration, especially the Iraq.

When I take a hostile tone, the hostility is only intended to be for the source of my ire.

[Undertoad]

I've seen video of soldiers breaking down doors, shoving people to the floor, and taking all of the guns in the house so don't even pretend it didn't happen.

So your narrative is that the entire country was systematically disarmed so that a massacre could take place, but has re-armed in the last, what, six months --

-- is based on the videos you've seen?

You saw videos and this was proof to you that the country was being disarmed?

I just want to make sure I have this straight. On these videos, did the reporter say "they are strategically and completely disarming the citizenry of Iraq"? Or was that something you divined? Or did you watch it without a reporter describing it?

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by BigV

From your perspective that person who picks up a rifle (and the responsibility) and slings lead your way is an insurgent. What are you called from his perspective? Are you a belligerent?

What do you call yourself, who picks up a rifle (and the responsibility)?

From the perspective of that other person, what does he call himself?

I understand I'm asking (respectfully) for a considerable amount of speculation. I would appreciate it if you would indulge and enlighten me.

Thanks in advance.

I'll try and keep this short and to the point. Yes, I am a belligerent. In the exact sense of the word, in keeping with the international rules of war. To be exact, I am a soldier. A uniformed member of the Armed Forces of the United States.

The guy or gal who picks up a rifle and fires rounds at me may or may not be an insurgent or a belligerent. They are certainly a combatant.

I really don't want to speculate as to what anyone else may think of me or themselves.

[Radar]

If you have a gun and you are in their country, you are an invader. If they take up arms against you, it is in their DEFENSE. If you take arms against them, it's because you are a hostile invader.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I've seen video of soldiers breaking down doors, shoving people to the floor, and taking all of the guns in the house so don't even pretend it didn't happen.

So your narrative is that the entire country was systematically disarmed so that a massacre could take place, but has re-armed in the last, what, six months --

-- is based on the videos you've seen?

You saw videos and this was proof to you that the country was being disarmed?

I just want to make sure I have this straight. On these videos, did the reporter say "they are strategically and completely disarming the citizenry of Iraq"? Or was that something you divined? Or did you watch it without a reporter describing it?

Get this right. CNN reported the FACT that in 1991 and subsequently, American soldiers kicked down the doors of Iraqi homes, shoved the inhabitants to the floor, searched the homes, and took all of their weapons including AK-47S. NOBODY was allowed to have them . America also shut down the free press in Iraq when they were reporting unfavorably about the American military.