I call Jupiter!

[Sundae]

Because we don't make all our own weapons any more?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Sundae

But in the end it was World War II that tipped the balance in lifting America out of depression.
No disrespect to FDR - he is one of my politcal heroes.

Ummmm...maybe for business profits,
but "tipped" may not be the best word
regarding unemployment.

US Depression: 1929
US Elected FDR: 1933
US entered WW II: 1944

US Unemployment Rate: 1932 - 23.6% (12.8 million unemployed)
US Unemployment Rate: 1938 - 19.1%
US Unemployment Rate: 1940 - 14.6%

[Sundae]

Good point.
I wasn't referring to America entering WWII. I always understood that the US benefitted when they were a neutral manufacturing country.

BUT I wasn't aware of the above figures and am happy to stand at least partially corrected.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

How come wars used to help the economy and now they hurt it?

Because Americans paid for the war through taxation.

The Department of the Treasury, for instance, was remarkably successful at generating money to pay for the war, including the first general income tax in American history and the famous "war bonds" sold to the public. Beginning in 1940, the government extended the income tax to virtually all Americans and began collecting the tax via the now-familiar method of continuous withholdings from paychecks (rather than lump-sum payments after the fact). The number of Americans required to pay federal taxes rose from 4 million in 1939 to 43 million in 1945. With such a large pool of taxpayers, the American government took in $45 billion in 1945, an enormous increase over the $8.7 billion collected in 1941 but still far short of the $83 billion spent on the war in 1945. Over that same period, federal tax revenue grew from about 8 percent of GDP to more than 20 percent. Americans who earned as little as $500 per year paid income tax at a 23 percent rate, while those who earned more than $1 million per year paid a 94 percent rate. The average income tax rate peaked in 1944 at 20.9 percent ("Fact Sheet: Taxes").

Remember, Bush did not budget for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He submitted "emergency spending bills" and the cost was added to the national debt.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by SamIam

And you really can't compare the US to Africa in that regard. The population density in Africa is much greater than it is here for one thing.

Africa pop. density: = 65 people per square mile
USA pop. density = 76 people per square mile

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Africa pop. density: = 65 people per square mile
USA pop. density = 76 people per square mile

My bad. I stated "you really can't compare the US to Africa" and then proceeded to do so. Africa is a continent. The USA, of course is a country.

Population densities of some COUNTRIES in Africa:

Rwanda 984/sq mile
Burundi 772/sq mile
Nigeria 433/ sq mile

[Undertoad]

DC 9857/sq mi
New Jersey 1196/sq mi
Rhode Island 1018/sq mi
Massachusetts 839/sq mi
Connecticut 738/sq mi
Maryland 595/sq mi
Delaware 461/sq mi

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

In all of recorded human history, armageddon is always predicted and has never happened.

Didn't I call you hand-wringers out in the 7 billion people thread? Your win-loss record is like 0 and infinity.

Can't you see what's right before your eyes? The agricultural history of the last century includes such massive gains that poor people are now obese!

Just noting that we disagree here. I don't have time (and didn't when the population thread was active) to discuss properly. Here is the short version:

1. Well, not "armageddon" but overpopulation leading to overconsumption causing ecological collapse leading to economic collapse leading to population crash and cultural regression.

It isn't just about population, but population times ecological impact per person. Economic activity is a pretty good proxy for ecological impact, and that is also rushing upwards. I mentioned elsewhere that 25% of ALL the economic activity in human history has taken place in the last ten years.

2. never happened ... not true. Jared Diamond (biologist turned historian) has a book called Collapse in which he carefully documents and analyses over a dozen (I think it was 17) human civilizations which have collapsed in exactly this way. Easter Island was the most obvious example, but there were others in the American South-west, Africa, other island nations, etc. All of them followed the pattern I describe in 1; and all of them kept growing and seeming fine right up until the collapse.

Each ecosystem (including the earth) has a certain amount of bio-capital and can produce a certain amount of bio-interest each year. So long as we live off the interest, all good. And yes, our clever food production CAN extract more interest without damaging the capital; but that isn't the only thing happening. Every year we exceed the bio-interest and nibble at the capital.

Our current appearance of prosperity is an illusion maintained by nibbling at the capital. The end comes suddenly and with only vague warnings that are easy to miss or deny.

If you disagree, try to buy some Atlantic cod or Atlantic tuna. These have been so overfished as to be commercially extinct. There are plenty of other fish stocks like them and more going that way. Same for forest resources, water resources, soil nutrients. Then add in the toxic pollution, the debt problem, oil supply problem, the demographic bulge problem and any others you feel like. (This is why I'm not too worried about climate change. I think it is real and will be bad, but we've got other much more urgent threats than that.)

3. poor people obese.

Has already been answered, but even if it were true, is entirely consistent with the situation described in 2. above.

BUT!
You are right in that it is possible that continued scientific progress will give us the means to deal with all of this crap. Lord I hope so. This requires that we make these breakthroughs before we collapse, and that we don't bollocks the place up irreparably in doing so. So for these reasons I have not given up hope, and also believe it is worthwhile trying to be gentle with the Earth to stretch out the time we have to get our act together.

Remember, this was the SHORT answer. I'm trying to conserve bits.

[Undertoad]

So the best example is 15,000 people with almost no technology, over-farming an island of only 80 square miles, that they could not leave because of its extreme isolation, between 1650 and 1722 before market economies were invented.


we'll be fine.




that's my short reply and i'm sticking to it

[ZenGum]

Finite isolated island or finite isolated planet, finite is finite. Isolated is isolated.

Yeah, whatever.

So, how about those [sporting team]?


(although ... notice that the guy with the high job security is all gloomy and pessimistic about the future, and the guy trying to create a small business in difficult times is all cheery and optimistic. carry on.)

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

DC 9857/sq mi
New Jersey 1196/sq mi
Rhode Island 1018/sq mi
Massachusetts 839/sq mi
Connecticut 738/sq mi
Maryland 595/sq mi
Delaware 461/sq mi

States and a city (they may call DC a "district," but its a city all the same) within a country against entire countries. We could keep playing this game endlessly. I was in error comparing the entire vast continent of Africa to the country of the United States. I've admitted that, already.

[Trilby]

"Everything comes to an end, Tony!"

- Carmella Soprano.

[ZenGum]

[HungLikeJesus]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Ummmm...maybe for business profits,
but "tipped" may not be the best word
regarding unemployment.

US entered WW II: 1944

1944?

[Lamplighter]

Ooooops... give or take 3 years.