8/12: Palestinian getting kicked (thx sapienza)

[jet_silver]

I'm not -too- sure how long people have been fighting over the Middle East but it's at least a millennium. Jerusalem has been fought over for longer than that.

So - with that in mind how is it that -anybody- thinks the problem is solvable now? Citizens, who want peace as long as war isn't more profitable, of the last thousand years weren't any dumber than today's citizens. The inhabitants themselves are the ones who have to make peace happen if it's going to. So far (and a thousand years is some bunch of time) it ain't.

All "civilization" has done is given heavier weapons to both sides. It takes longer for the pot to boil but when it does it will throw the soup farther.

"But we can't stand buy and nod sadly when armed conquest SUCCEEDS. We must stop it. At any cost. That's the whole concept of civilization, that's what sets us apart from animals.

Cute. Tell that to a North American Indian. Tell it to a Hawaiian islander. Tell it to an Ainu. Civilization, and thus barbarism, is very much in the eye of the beholder.

What should Be Done Now? Simple. Seal the borders. Leave. Call in a year or so and see what happened. If the people had any sense they'd get rid of their "leaders", and then they'd have an even chance of learning to get along. It's no solution to the 'problem' but it's better than having the fighting and a bunch of international angst too.

[kaleidoscopic ziggurat]

Originally posted by Xugumad
I hope that's not the way it is - and if it becomes that way, we must stop it. We can't live in a world where national boundaries and populations can be redrawn at gunpoint because somebody's arsenal is better than yours.

That's why Wilhelm II's aspirations were fought. That's why Adolf Hitler's desires had to be beaten back. (even though western Oil interests dictated military action) That's why - ultimately - Saddam had to be restrained. That's why the US can't simply annex Canada, although it has the weapons and army to do so.

Yeah, World Peace is a distant hope - but we can't stand buy and nod sadly when armed conquest SUCCEEDS. We must stop it. At any cost. That's the whole concept of civilization, that's what sets us apart from animals. The biggest and most silver-haired gorilla will get the most fertile female, even if it means killing other males. Are we more than that?

perhaps it has more to do with perception of conflict -- wars today are fought on the economic turf. the US doesnt go take countries over because they can make a fortune off them through trading overhyped american goods, services, and entertainment for various things they need or want. if i'm not mistaken, america has the policy of going into small countries and intervening in local politics if it looks as if they would close their borders and stop trade. wasnt that what nicaragua was all about? but as i say, if i'm mistaken, let me know. i'm not the most knowledgeable about historic minutae.

the team is only as good as its worst player, perhaps? yes i'd say that the human race collectively acts as well as gorillas even in modern times. humans have to be able to respect themselves, others, and most importantly, where they live... but that isn't happening and an epiphany isn't likely. so one has to work within the framework of what IS.

off course!

Nomadic Palestinian settlers were, arguably, a thousand years behind the jewish settlers who arrived and soon received military support ranging from the most modern tanks to nuclear weapons. My comparison didn't claim that NAmerica should be given back to Native Americans. It just showed that the way 'the west was won' is somewhat similar to the way the Palestinians were pushed out. Besides, giving anything back to Native Americans apart from the few reservations that they have right now would be an outright admission of guilt, which many people simply aren't comfortable with. Clinton can feel guilty and sniff sadly, but most white Americans would rather worry about where to get the money for their SUV's gas needs.

agreement here. current generations think of the greenhouse effect and figure that it is the problem for future generations to solve... then the issue with the natives, well that's not our fault - blame someone generations back! something fishy...

And by the way - the reason why I brought up Washington etc. is because of the claim that Arafat is Egyptian (and thus by implication shouldn't be messing around with the Palestinians that much anyway). Washington, Jefferson etc. fought for the freedom and independence of a country that they THEMSELVES had to found. They weren't 'American', Arafat isn't 'Palestinian', all of them fight for what they perceive to be their homeland.

alright, gotcha. i see your point here too.

The BIG zionist immigration to what is now only a small part of Israel started AFTER World War TWO, not ONE. Israel declared independence in 1947. No Ottomans there. The situation was fluid as mud. The Balfour declaration was in 1917, yes, but many things happened around that time. To artificially create a Jewish state in the middle of a hostile Arab sea borders on megalomania on the side of the British. Not that anyone would accuse them of that, of course. Rule Britannia!

so in hindsight we can say that it wasn't the brightest thing perhaps, but what's done is done, right?

Doubtful. 'God's chosen people', as obnoxious as the term is, would still claim land that isn't theirs to take, and oppress those who want to kick them out. A lot is religious, yes, but the Israeli state still remains an artificial creation that wouldn't exist without $7 BILLION of US funding every year. And that's just the official, disclosed foreign aid. Nobody knows how much more is pumped into Israel, especially in illegitimate weapons aid.

so you're saying that israel is an american foothold in the middle east?

Learn to read critically. Don't just watch TV news, read some independent media. Try reading some British news sources - ironically those are a lot more in-depth and critical than the US ones. I recommend www.indymedia.org www.worldnews.com and www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest

i don't watch a bit of TV... my news comes out of wherever... a lil CNN [which i always mistrust], some from the star here in toronto, a bit from the BBC.

And again - you do not CREATE nation states. There was no nation. There was no state. There was an artificial transplant of Jewish people into an area of the world where they did not belong. Nobody there cared about what happened 2000 years ago, apart from the jewish interests in the countries that sponsored AND STILL SPONSOR that move. Israel didn't beat back any Arab onslaught - US weapons did. Now ask yourself why a 'good Christian' US would want to cause problems to Islamic countries. (especially 40-50 years ago) HMM.

oil? i don't know what american concerns were 40-50 years ago...

Knowing the truth and telling more people about it will do a lot more than shrugging and turning your back. That's what this is all about.

trust is subjective in this case.

No. I don't want Israel to stop existing - there are a LOT of people there who are completely innocent of any of the idiocy that has led to this mess.

I just want people to realize that Israel is being kept alive artificially by US interests. $7 billion at least, as stated earlier. Ever wonder why the US is now dipping into social security funds to try and stop the renewed deficit slide? Ever wonder how it's going to pay for Star Wars X? Ever wonder how many homeless people there are? Or how many are dying of AIDS and other fatal diseases because so many people shrug and say 'they should have had health insurance'? Do you have ANY clue how ridiculous it is to be accused of being a 'bleeding heart liberal' when you see people dying not just around you but thousands of miles across the planet just because of vested US interests and fucked-up lobbyist groups?

it sounds like that's how the world works. i hardly accept that - the events of my life have given me a healthy mistrust for authoitah... but i can't do anything about it right now, aside from trying to get people to turn off their televisions.

Without US aid, Israel would be wiped off the face of the planet in less than a decade. It would have never come into existence, and it's been kept alive for over half a century now. The formerly oppressed Jews have instituted a racist and authoritarian regime, oppressing the Palestinians in one of the most ironic tragedies of the last century.

I am not complaining about Israel. I don't dislike the Jews. I just wonder WHY all of the above is going on.

so are you implying that the israelis are yet another pawn in some dastardly american affairs? pokin a stick into the hornets nest, as such?

i think they'd still be around in 10 years.. they are a strong people. we've given up natural selection to deal with another kind...

i don't think we agree so much... i support israel to the point where they unnecessarily persecute palestinians.. and i abhor the sort of harmful generalizations that develop on both sides... and i don't like american foreign policy much... hmm in fact i might have a troublesome time cohesively explaining why i support israel.

but the search for truth is noble... keep it up.