What is "freedom"?

[mrnoodle]

Your world can't exist. Crime goes hand in hand with all those activities, because they appeal to our basest nature. For the sake of space, I'll just address the heroin aspect. People addicted to heroin become unable to function without being high, and lose the strength they need to deal with life outside of dope. Therefore they can no longer stay gainfully employed, and can't supply themselves with heroin. So they steal what others have in order to get a fix. If you arrest them for their crimes (we'll assume the judicial system supports rehabilitation of criminals), the rest of society has to pay for their room and board while they get cleaned up from their heroin habit, which infringes on our freedom to spend our money as we choose. For that matter, rehabilitating the heroin user deprives the heroin distributor of income. Can't have the government regulate heroin either -- rights would necessarily be infringed.

For all the "realistic"-sounding trimmings on your arguments, they spring from the juvenile fantasies of someone who just doesn't like being told what to do.

But you're so damned intelligent. I hope you're using that brain for something more than utopian rants.

[wolf]

Originally posted by Radar
None of those things cause physical harm to any non-consenting others or their property; not one.

Explain that to your wife when you give her the clap, chlymidia, and HIV that you got from your whore.

[mutating string]

[jaguar]

I just noticed it's mutating sting, not mutated. Get the cage, we've got a live one here and it's trying to crawl behind the oven, quick!
Sorry.

In response to Radar's delightfully idealistic view I'll reiterate what I said earlier. Absolute freedom is never possible because you start infringing on other people's freedom. Think of it this way, each person has a an area around them, kinda like personal space. If that space is infinitely big, they're gonna start overlapping.

[OnyxCougar]

This probably doesn't go here, but I'ma put here anyway, because I'm free to do that.

I recently moved from Nevada to North Carolina. OK, not so recently, it's been 7 months now. Well, I finally got the income tax refund check, so I can afford to register/tax/title my car and pay my speeding ticket (FTA in December means warrant out on me now, which I must pay before I get my NC Driver's License.)

I realized last weekend that my car's plates expired in February, so I've been driving on expired tags. Warrant for FTA + expired tags = Oh shit, I really gotta go take care of this.

So I go pay the fine, and get my receipt. I go to the DMV (a very small joint in the strip mall) and tell them I need to register the car in NC. She asks for the title. Since I was stupid, I left the title in Vegas, and God knows what's happened to it now. (I also realized yesterday I left my passport, but that's another story.)

I tell her I don't have my title, but I have every other Nevada document (old registration for the past 7 years, insurance cards for the past 5 years). She says it doesn't matter, I need the title to register the car. Well, that's fair, I mean, I'm the dumbass that doesn't have the title to her car.

I tell her I will get a duplicate title from Nevada. However, my plates have already expired. I asked her for a temp tag until I get my title. She said no. They don't do that. I tell her, "Look, I'm driving on expired plates, I live in North Carolina, and I'm trying to do this legally. Is there anything I can do?"

She looked at me calmly and said, "No."

I asked her what happens if I get pulled over, she says, "You'll get a ticket for driving on expired plates." I said, "Exactly. So even tho I'm in here, asking for plates, temp tag, 30 day extension, whatever, I can't get one to drive my car legally?"

"No."

SoOOooOOo.. Needless to say I'm pissed. I went to the Nevada DMV site and downloaded and printed the "request for duplicate title" form. It's going to take 4 - 6 weeks to process.

I've done this with Nevada before, and to get a duplicate title last time took 6 MONTHS. And that was calling once a week. All I can do is keep proof in my car I was down at DMV and have applied for the plates and hope I don't get pulled over, and if I do, take time off work to go down there and tell the judge the situation, and hope he's sympathetic.

All this so NC can start taxing me on the vehicle PLUS get a registration fee PLUS my driver's license fee PLUS the gasoline tax I pay. So I can drive on crappy, potholed roads that don't get a pass-by with the snowplow on the (3) days it snows here a year. Yeah.

Freedom comes with a price. Money = freedom. If I had MONEY, I could fly to Nevada, pay a guy to stand in line for me at the DMV (they have those in Vegas, because ANY time you go to DMV you're there for 3 hours) while I go out to a nice long lunch at Emeril's in the MGM, and when I'm done, I pick up my tags, and fly back to NC, put the tag on my car, and be done. Of course, if I had MONEY I wouldn't have left in the circumstances I did, and would have had furniture and all my documents and this still wouldn't be a problem.

But even after all that, I'm not a materialistic person. (believe me, if I was, I'd have furniture...and a nice house. with decorations.) I don't need stuff to be happy. But I do need money to be free. Freedom means that you don't have to deal with this bullshit buracracy (sp). How does paying the state of NC $213 A YEAR (taxes and tags) help me? They aren't fixing the roads here. Someone is getting paid with that money, and they aren't doing a damn thing for me.

grrr. And don't get me started on how places here don't take cash for stuff. My apartment complex will not take cash for payment. So, in essence they are saying that United States issued Currency is not a valid payment method. Says on the dollar that it is "legal tender, for all debts, public and private" but you won't accept it? No, you want to discriminate against me, force me to have a checking account, or pay extra money for a money order. ARRRGH!!

*sigh* ok.... [/rant]

[justme]

"Freedom comes with a price. Money = freedom. If I had MONEY, I could fly to Nevada, pay a guy to stand in line for me at the DMV (they have those in Vegas, because ANY time you go to DMV you're there for 3 hours) while I go out to a nice long lunch at Emeril's in the MGM, and when I'm done, I pick up my tags, and fly back to NC, put the tag on my car, and be done. Of course, if I had MONEY I wouldn't have left in the circumstances I did, and would have had furniture and all my documents and this still wouldn't be a problem."

Money just give you possibilities to get what you'd like. It's not bad at all

Yes,freedom comes with a price, but it's not money. You can do whatever you want, but always be prepared to pay the price for it. If you admit everything what you're doing with your life is only your responsibility, if you're ready to pay the price for that, you are almost get a freedom. Almost.

The absolute freedom doesn't exist.

[OnyxCougar]

I suppose you're right. I live in a country that is supposed to be the last bastion of freedom, that espouses freedom as this wonderful thing, and to which millions of immigrants come to every year.

And I can't get temp tags for my car.

I've lived in other countries. (All European, in case you were wondering.) And I must say, I was glad to get home. But not because of the freedoms, but the conveniences.

In Britain, shit costs alot of money. Petrol is like $12 a gallon, after conversion. (And you wondered why all the cars are the key-in-the-back wind up sized there. That's why.) Taxes are insane. (A tax on doorknobs? Are you joking?) TV tax. Have to pay about $150 to get 5 BROADCAST stations? What?

In Croatia, shit costs alot of money too, but no one has any, so everybody is poor. (I would love to live in Croatia and make American money. I would live like a queen. $1 = 7 kuna. You can get a 4 course meal for 30 kuna. Yeah. Rent for an apartment in Zagreb is $175 a month. I could get used to that.

No, I've never lived in a country that you have to be afraid of what you say, and you don't have the "freedom" to speak your mind. And I guess I take that for granted.

I suppose justme and Billy would have a different definition of "freedom" than I do, because we start from different points. I AM fortunate to live in the US, and I guess it really gets to me to see that this country is going downhill as quickly as it is. The very things it has stood for are being taken away by "Patriot Acts" and all the other things that are denying our people: the right to assemble and speak out against who we want, the right to a speedy trial (Guantanamo), and all the other covert shit that's going on.

Is a completely corrupt and hated government, a broken and tattered judicial system the price we have to pay for freedom?

~~take it, Radar...

[justme]

I think it's bad you know who I am. You're just talking with an immigrant. Not with ME.

[Radar]

People addicted to heroin become unable to function without being high, and lose the strength they need to deal with life outside of dope. Therefore they can no longer stay gainfully employed, and can't supply themselves with heroin.

That is absolutely false. First off not all drug users are drug abusers. Secondly many people are functioning addicts. One of the top heart surgeons of the 50's and 60's was addicted to heroin for most of his professional career and none of his colleagues or friends knew about it until he retired and published it in his memoires. He held his job for 30 years without stealing and he did it well.

Also if heroin were legal it would be so cheap, addicts could support their habit even with a low paying burger flipping job just as they do with cigs right now.

If you arrest them for their crimes (we'll assume the judicial system supports rehabilitation of criminals), the rest of society has to pay for their room and board while they get cleaned up from their heroin habit, which infringes on our freedom to spend our money as we choose.

How is that different than what we have now? I'll tell you. It's different because the jails won't be filled with non-violent drug users, sellers, or buyers. They won't be filled to the brim with non-criminals as they are now, so even if a few addicts steal, there would be much fewer stealing to support their habits and the cost to jail them would be a tiny fraction of what we're paying right not to jail more people than any other industrialized nation.

For that matter, rehabilitating the heroin user deprives the heroin distributor of income. Can't have the government regulate heroin either -- rights would necessarily be infringed.

The government regulates alcohol. Whose rights are being infringed? The government regulates prescription drugs, cigs, etc. Whose rights are being infringed? With dosages measured and controlled, less people would become addicted and those who did use it would be less likely to overdose because they'd know the strength of what they were taking.

For all the "realistic"-sounding trimmings on your arguments, they spring from the juvenile fantasies of someone who just doesn't like being told what to do.

Every single thing I said is realistic, appropriate, and represents freedom. In fact everything I said was legal in America. Up until 1913 you could sent your 12 year old daughter to the drug store to get you some heroin. Were the streets filled with heroin users robbing people? No. Was there more or less crime in 1913? Far less.

History proves that when a substance is prohibited, the public uses more of it. During Prohibition, alcohol use skyrocketed, organized crime was created in America, judges, politicians, and police were corrupted, innocent men, women, and children were mowed down in the street in gang wars, people went blind and died from uncontrolled bathtub gin, etc.

What I'm talking about is reality, not utopia. It's cold, hard, indisputable facts. If you had a grasp on reality, you would know this. I'm not the one with fantasies, but you seem to have fantasies of a nanny state that controls everyone. I have dreams of returning America to the freedom we had when this nation was created (but this time for all citizens) but you promote a twisted Orwellian nightmare of government control on our private lives.

Explain that to your wife when you give her the clap, chlymidia, and HIV that you got from your whore.

In the more than 30 years of legalized prostitution in the state of Nevada, not one case of any disease of any kind has ever been reported. The women are checked out twice a week and can't even work if they have a cold. Everyone must use a condom, nobody can kiss, insert fingers, etc. Nobody has gotten a cold from them, let alone HIV. Try again.

Absolute freedom is never possible because you start infringing on other people's freedom.

I've always said, one person's rights end where another person's begin. The old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." is apt. You may do ANYTHING you want as long as what your doing doesn't infringe or physically harm the person, property, or rights of a non-consenting other. Not one thing I mentioned violates the rights, person, or property of non-consenting others so it doesn't invade their "space".

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by justme
I think it's bad you know who I am. You're just talking with an immigrant. Not with ME.

I didn't know you were actually an immigrant, as far as I knew, you were in Russia. So I DON'T know who you are. All I know is that you speak Russian and have talked to Stacey. Now I know you're in the United States. So? How does that change what I wrote?

[justme]

"So? How does that change what I wrote?"

A lot I'm talking about philosophy.I mean, about philosophical definitions.

[Troubleshooter]

One component people leave out of freedom is the freedom to suffer the consequences of their actions.

[jaguar]

Contradictory I'm half with Radar on the drugs. Frankly I think the best thing that could happen to the world would be the legalization of all substances. Firstly, you'd wipe out more than half of crime and most of the major crime syndicated overnight. Poof, there goes the big 3 cartels in mexico, most of the triads, most of the mafia operations, most of all the iron triangle shit. Secondly, you can't treat people who are living outside the law effectively, they become extremely vulnerable and as we have well seen, tend to go downhill very rapidly. Whether it's possible to be a recreational user of something like heroin I don't know and I don't intend to try (bad enough on the smokes - see hinterland for that thread) but even is some can, most won't. Good luck arguing that all drug addicts would not be addicts if the stuff was legal. The way I see it if they get it along with mandatory counseling etc it's the best possible outcome for society.

[Troubleshooter]

I'm looking forward to the terminal benders people would go on if everything was made legal.

Just imagining the body count gives me chills.

[Radar]

One component people leave out of freedom is the freedom to suffer the consequences of their actions.

You'll note I didn't leave that out. I specifically mentioned it because there is no freedom without responsibility.

Whether it's possible to be a recreational user of something like heroin I don't know and I don't intend to try (bad enough on the smokes - see hinterland for that thread) but even is some can, most won't. Good luck arguing that all drug addicts would not be addicts if the stuff was legal.

Let's say you're right and most users of heroin become addicted. Those are the consequences they must deal with for their decision to use heroin. Government is not here to protect us from our own poor decisions. That is impossible and even an attempt to do so would make sure we had no freedom what-so-ever. Whether or not we would still have addicts is not the question. The question is whether we should spend trillions locking up non-criminals and violate the freedom of all Americans because a relatively few people were irresponsible.

If someone uses crack and kills someone, using crack wasn't the crime, killing someone was. If someone takes heroin, gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, using heroin wasn't the crime, getting behind the wheel of a car while under the influence was, and if someone is smoking weed and steals all your M&M's, theft was the crime, not getting high.