Life under GWB

[wolf]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I'm old as the hills, Clodfobble and I grew up in a military town. I can assure you that once upon time it would have been unthinkable to see that man with his "Homeless Vet" sign.

Funny thing about those crazy homeless vets?

You call up the VA hospital to try to get them in and they just don't exist.

Oh. Yeah. They were all on some secret mission in Cambodia and that's why they don't have a record in the system. Right.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The only way you could have had a brighter future, xoB, is if the Democrats had won. Al Gore proposed a defense budget increase of $100B over W's budget. He was the hawkest of all hawks at one time.

That's because he had SURPLUS to work with.

Pie, I know what you mean.

Originally Posted by wolf

Funny thing about those crazy homeless vets?

You call up the VA hospital to try to get them in and they just don't exist.

Oh. Yeah. They were all on some secret mission in Cambodia and that's why they don't have a record in the system. Right.

No, its called incompetance on the part of the VA. For a while, the VA thought my Dad didn't exist either when he needed some surgery. I went through the roof and they finally decided that he actually had been in the military after I chewed them out up one side of the room and down the other. At the moment, the local VA counseling center has a case load of like 500 vets per therapist.

[tw]

Policies of George Jr in many cases have not yet appeared in your life. For example, now that the drug industry has had their 'double' drug prices in America protected by George Jr socialism - complete with an $8billion corporate welfare - well, those costs are coming to a drug store near you.

The stock market has seen zero growth after the initial George Jr downturn. This while the propaganda says otherwise - and debts are piling up like surges upon a New Orleans levee.

Gasoline prices more than doubled We somehow think this has not impacted the economy? Well, yes. Because those problems like so many others created by George Jr are still behind that levee.

Let's not forget how many future enemies are being produced and cultured today by George Jr - who even authorizes torture as violent as that imposed by N Vietnamese upon American prisoners. We openly advocate torture and somehow pretend it is not happening. But travel the world to see how it has impacted where an Americans are still warmly welcomed.

How bad will your expenses become? Transportation industries - especially GM and the airlines - will cause lower American living standards when their debt dam bursts - including massive pensions fund defaults. You still think everything is just fine? Notice the debts not yet booked since the George Jr administration can hide them with SS, FAA, and Highway Trust Fund ‘book keeping’.

I watch things like wholesale electric prices. Normally grid electricity would sell anywhere from $20 per megawatt hour up to $60. However even in this week - when electricity is not in demand - those wholesale prices during the day have been on the order of $200 and $220. You tell me. Has your electric bill gone up - let alone go up by a factor of 10? Just another example of market forces piling up behind the levee. What will your oil or gas heating bill look like this winter? You have a nestegg for those expenses including rising taxes because government also needs to pay their energy bills?

Denial remains widespread. Those who are subjective claim that SUV sales have decreased. Yes. And then we look at the numbers - how realists learn. The decrease is so small as to be called zero. Another symptom of denial as debt and inflation pile up behind that levee. But George Jr says, "No one expected the levees to be breached". That's how bad it may get. Many of us are still thinking as if we too are George Jr. - in denial.

[DanaC]

"We are all interconnected. We are all Americans. What happens to the least of us, happens also to me. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.""

Words of wisdom indeed.

"When your support is entirely through public assistance you have a much different view of the state of the world than if you're actually working to earn your keep. "

I work for a living and I still share Marichiko's point of view. If the only people who gave a shit about the people at the bottom of the pile, were the people at the bottom of the pile, we'd have a cold and callous jungle of a world and that would be a pity.

Does one really have to be dependant upon the state, in order to see oneself as intrinsically linked to one's countrymen? I find that deeply sad; not to mention indicative of pretty much all that's wrong with the Capitalist West (imo)

I also find it amusing that every time Marichiko dares to have an opinion on society, Wolf finds a way to work in an insult/jibe about her lack of income. What's your next trick Wolf? Nip down to the nearest set of slums and laugh at the poor people, maybe wave a wad of money in their faces ?

Originally Posted by DanaC

Does one really have to be dependant upon the state, in order to see oneself as intrinsically linked to one's countrymen? I find that deeply sad; not to mention indicative of pretty much all that's wrong with the Capitalist West (imo)

I also find it amusing that every time Marichiko dares to have an opinion on society, Wolf finds a way to work in an insult/jibe about her lack of income. What's your next trick Wolf? Nip down to the nearest set of slums and laugh at the poor people, maybe wave a wad of money in their faces ?

Dana, what I find interesting is that the points I brought up - environmental concerns, the war in Iraq, loss of civil liberties - had little to do with income.

Some people who are at a loss to answer the issues I raise will, instead, answer the issues I don't raise and turn a debate into a personal attack. This one dimensional response demonstrates to me an unwillingness to think in any but the most reflexive, knee jerk way. It is intellectually lazy and, ultimately, boring.

The refusal to think outside the box and the assumption that "I'm OK, and anybody else who isn't must be fucked," is widespread in this country and is one of the greatest detriments around to the US remaining a free and strong country.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Dana, what I find interesting is that the points I brought up - environmental concerns, the war in Iraq, loss of civil liberties - had little to do with income.

Disagree. What I see is economic strata has a large bearing on the individuals view of those subjects.
There are, of course, exceptions. But I don't think it's an unfair generalization.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Disagree. What I see is economic strata has a large bearing on the individuals view of those subjects.
There are, of course, exceptions. But I don't think it's an unfair generalization.

In what way, Bruce? I actually think those with good incomes would be more worried about the environment, for example. They have the freedom from other worries to think of the big picture rather than the small day to day one of personal survival. The man living in a cardboard box is just worried if its going to get below freezing tonight. An environmental concern, yes - but not exactly a national or global one.

Or, is that what you meant?

[Happy Monkey]

If you have enough money, you can buy your way out of the ill effects of pollution, the Iraq war, and the loss of civil liberties. At least in the short term.

You have a point, HM. Never-the-less, look at the make up of the Sierra Club, The Nature Conservancy, and the ACLU, just to give a few examples. Very few of their members make less than 10K/year and those who do are most likely college students.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

At least this poll wasn't too screwed up to include an answer I could give, unlike that other one. This one actually shows a poll methodology, rather than foregone conclusions.

[Undertoad]

According to this collection of polling data, the environment is not top-ten for most people.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

According to this collection of polling data, the environment is not top-ten for most people.

Which is not to say it shouldn't be. As someone with a degree in biology/ecology as well as being a person who grew up in the Rocky Mountain West, I see disturbing signs of environmental degredation everywhere. The birds coming home to roost will be ones that NONE of us are going to be fond of.


However, my point was not about the environment's popularity as an issue, I was merely using it as one example of concerns that people who are NOT poor have about the impact of Junior's administration.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by DanaC

"When your support is entirely through public assistance you have a much different view of the state of the world than if you're actually working to earn your keep. "

You could be like my son who is both on disability, yet works as hard as he can at the most meager, often humiliating sort of job, trying to be as self-sufficient as possible, and make a better world for himself in the process. Missouri's Republican governor decided we had to cut the Medicaid costs, so guess who gets to bear a portion? My kid. "Oh, you earn some money? Well, then, you can afford to pay $146.00 more out of pocket per month for your coverage."

The great thing was, Gubnah Blunt (apparently named after what he's been smoking) then gave a large free ride to corporate energy users, choosing instead to let the public pay *all* of the environmental impact fees required by new legislation. This is good for business, you see, so therefore it is good for people like my son, already barely keeping their heads above water in the face of spiraling prices and zero chance of obtaining a better job or even getting out of the public dole.

My kid gets hosed in just about every way possible. I think it is time we just start putting the gimps out on an ice floe and waving goodbye to them, or perhaps throwing them all in concentration camps and feeding them expired dog food.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by marichiko

..... look at the make up of the Sierra Club, The Nature Conservancy, and the ACLU, just to give a few examples. Very few of their members make less than 10K/year and those who do are most likely college students.

Well, Mari, I belong to two of the three anyway, does that still count?

And actually, Bruce, I also beg to differ because I have not changed my social attitudes, political leanings, or the things about government that make me mad or that get my approval. The names and faces and dates might change, but what I called shit once is still shit now. From the time I was a college brat supported by parents, to working for a large multinational (Republican) company, to getting married, buying a house, losing it, and getting divorced 10 years later, to pulling myself back up by my teeth and nails, and finally to being on total disability for the last two years and unable to work due to a pulmonary embolism and severe scoliosis, my views have not changed. I have made a high of 52K in my best year in the 80's and went to a NEGATIVE 25K today, but in all that time and circumstances I still believe in the same principles. I never felt I was "owed" anything except fair tax levies and that is NOT an entitlement, it is the reason we fought to found an independent country. I feel no hostility toward the government or resentment because I TONCHI am now a "Have-Not". I feel hostility toward stupidity, waste, lies, and pork being force-fed to the citizens, along with a serious helping of hot lead from countries we have no business being in. I fail to see where your assumptions about income-created social status and perceived social injustices can be applied to EVERYBODY, and I respectfully ask for a retraction.