9/11 Extra: Planes Crash Into World Trade Center

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by tw
How well did your news service operate.

I've been spending time on the BBC News website. I like the way the news is laid out there, not to mention, it's a difference perspective. Check it out.

[sleemanj]

Ok, yes, the recent occurances are less than pleasant. Nobody can deny that. Whomever organised this needs to be found, apprehended and imprisioned, in solitary, for life (I do not agree with death penalties, no matter the crime).

But... just to put some perspective on things, in this accident combined I would expect the final death toll to be less than 10,000 people, perhaps as low as 6000, a lot of people got out of the WTC before things went pear shaped.

But more than 20,000 people this year in the USA alone will die from homicide. Your own people (I'm not American) almost certainly kill more of your own people per year than this act will claim as it's final death toll.

Think about it, think about those 20,000 people who will die this year looking at the barrel of a gun, or bleed to death from multiple stab wounds, ... and then ask yourself, why do you not cry for thier lives as you cry for these 6000 ?

[kaleidoscopic ziggurat]

maybe if 20,000 homicides happened all at once it would be the same.

i just don't like how this event is giving some people the chance to hop up on a soap box and capitalize on the situation... especially that email floating around, supposedly an editorial from canada talking about how great america is... that's just fabricated propaganda (we spell neighbour with a U) and isn't appropriate. all the rest of the "what about X?" folks are perhaps barking up the wrong tree as well...

[Chewbaccus]

Because those 20k don't get 24-hour + media coverage.

That's the way the world works. See "15 Minutes" if you don't believe me.

Criticizingly,

~Mike

[ndetroit]

Hey Jaguar,

Where did you hear that the Taliban has Bin Laden under house arrest? I could not find it on any of the major news sites..

It would be great if that were true, would probably save a lot of afghanistani lives.

..

Taliban government has denied it. From MSNBC:

Earlier, an Arabic online newspaper reported that the Taliban had put bin Laden under house arrest, but Taliban sources later told the Afghan Islamic Press news agency that the report was “false and fabricated.”

Oh well...

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by sleemanj
Think about it, think about those 20,000 people who will die this year looking at the barrel of a gun, or bleed to death from multiple stab wounds, ... and then ask yourself, why do you not cry for thier lives as you cry for these 6000 ?

It's never a good thing when a person dies needlessly. Also, keep in mind, these people that died in the World Trade Center are technically murder victims. I believe the WTC is being considered a crime scene. How often though, do 6000 people die at one time? How can people not appalled by the sheer numbers? Also, I would estimate that many Americans don't quite think on this level. No offense to them, but it's hard for some to look at the entire perspective.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by kaleidoscopic ziggurat
especially that email floating around, supposedly an editorial from canada talking about how great america is... that's just fabricated propaganda (we spell neighbour with a U) and isn't appropriate.

From the Urban Legends Reference Page, this editorial is indeed TRUE. However, it was done by radio commentator Gordon Sinclair in 1973, not recently. The text that Urban Legends uses is from the Congressional Record, which would explain why the words are Americanized.

[sleemanj]

Originally posted by sycamore

It's never a good thing when a person dies needlessly.

No of course not.

Also, keep in mind, these people that died in the World Trade Center are technically murder victims.

Mmmmm, maybe, depends, if this is considered an act of war then wouldn't they be regarded as victims of war (is that the term) ? Not that it matters, I'm just being pedantic.

I believe the WTC is being considered a crime scene. How often though, do 6000 people die at one time?

Not often, I can't really think of any incidents outside of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, but i'm sure there must be.

Also, I would estimate that many Americans don't quite think on this level. No offense to them, but it's hard for some to look at the entire perspective.

This is the problem, already we are seeing unwarranted hatred being directed towards anybody remotly Arabic looking, or of Muslim faith. And not just in America, even here in lil'ol New Zealand there are reports of this! It's just insane, hate for the sake of hate. It leaves me in dismay that obviously such racisim lives just below the surface of so many people.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by sleemanj
Mmmmm, maybe, depends, if this is considered an act of war then wouldn't they be regarded as victims of war (is that the term) ? Not that it matters, I'm just being pedantic.

Not really, given that we are not currently at war with any country.

This is the problem, already we are seeing unwarranted hatred being directed towards anybody remotly Arabic looking, or of Muslim faith. And not just in America, even here in lil'ol New Zealand there are reports of this! It's just insane, hate for the sake of hate. It leaves me in dismay that obviously such racisim lives just below the surface of so many people.

I do agree that it is a problem, when we put it in that context. It is unfortunate that some Americans shoot first and ask questions later. It doesn't help with what we've seen in the media today. This type of frenzy also occurred after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Respect and understanding are crucial right now...and truth be told, it wouldn't hurt for our government to make a statement regarding this.

*wishfully thinks*

[elSicomoro]

I work for a wireless phone insurance provider. About 8:30 this morning, I get a claim call. The first thing we do for a new claim is ask for the mobile number. As soon as the customer gave me area code 347 (one of the area codes of the NYC boroughs sans Manhattan), I got that queasy feeling.

"Ok ma'am, could you provide me with a description of what happened to your phone?" (She had mentioned as soon as I picked up the phone that she was reporting a lost phone.)

"I was at the World Trade Center on Tuesday."

"Okay...*stomach starts to knot up, trying to keep cool*...so you were at the World Trade Center on Tuesday and lost your phone?" (I always confirm the info that the customer gives me.)

"Yes, I worked there."

I had to take pause for a moment. The woman sounded very sad. I can only imagine what she had experienced. In the end, I handled the situation well. Granted, my job is to process insurance claims...to keep cool. On one hand, I wanted to say, "I'm sorry for what you have experienced." On the other hand, what exactly can you say?

[Chewbaccus]

Slee, I've been discussing the events with my family (primarily my mother), and she made a good point:

After the Cold War to this point, America has been perceived as the world's rock, the one standing superpower. When this perception was pierced and our vulnerability laid bare for the world to see, it shook EVERYONE.

When I viewed the images in the "World Reaction" sections Tony put up, I was touched. What really got to me was the special session of the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham.

For the uninitiated, the Changing is very quiet: No music, no fanfare, just essentially a shift change. Today (9-13-01), they did a special session. Everyone was gathered, and the Royal military band of England (I know there's a specific name, but it escapes me at the moment) was there, playing the American national anthem at Queen Elizabeth II's personal request.

The best thing I can think of saying is: The giant sleeps no more, and it's a Republican. Not even God can help whoever is found to have done this.

Forebodingly,

~Mike

[jaguar]

I found BBC, Salon and Slashdot were by far the best news sources.

*straps on firesuit*
There are, at a macro level two reasons behind this. One is very Marxist of me, class war.

The second and third world are very pissed off with the first world, this is to be expected, and we exploit them.

If anyone wants to disagree ill go into allot more detail but it’s been a long, long week and I’m tired.

The second reason is US foreign policy.
Why are the Taliban in power? The US wanted to rid the area of USSR influence. Unquestioning support of Israel hasn’t helped either. On that subject Palestine has not lost ALL support in the western world - stupid move. The US has a long history of playing political games to benefit it and its business interests, this has got to stop.

Now is one of the most dangerous times in recent history. Depending on how this is handled it could cause a long running ragged war that could be incredible bloody, and I don't trust the ham-fisted conservative republican administration to handle this properly. I'm hoping finally Powell gets a decent say instead of being marginalized.

If they fuck this up, and chances are they will, expect fucking war, not trenches and marines but terrorist attacks, bombings etc. It will not be pretty. *sighs*

Already the blind hatred I’m seeing is SO FUCKING STUPID. There was a letter in the herald sun here, the local paper for the average labor voter, tends to be very sensationalist that said 'just nuke the entire middle east, problem solved' If I could find that person I’d chain them to a chair and force them to watch videos of what ordinary people are going though there for about a week.

It will be hard, if not impossible to avoid a very dangerous conflict out of this.

I'm not sure about that house arrest report on Osama i've heard stuff both ways know. I hope they have for everyone's sake.

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by jaguar
<snip>If I could find that person I’d chain them to a chair and force them to watch videos of what ordinary people are going though there for about a week.

<snip>

Guess what - I've watched what has been going on here in NY for a week, and I agree with that letter - but first spray the whole place with pork fat

[lisa]

Originally posted by jaguar
There was a letter in the herald sun here, the local paper for the average labor voter, tends to be very sensationalist that said 'just nuke the entire middle east, problem solved' If I could find that person I'd chain them to a chair and force them to watch videos of what ordinary people are going though there for about a week.

Literally, that person may be correct. That MIGHT eliminate the problem that we are having this week (though I question even that). But we'd have other problems, not the least of which would be ourselves and what we would have become -- the same as them -- by indescriminately killing the innocent along with the guilty with no regard for human life.

There are two ways that I have often seen people react to acts of violence and misery -- even as "minor" as children who are bullied in school. The first is "fine, if people are going to do that to me, I am going to do it to other people" also known as the "get them before they get you" philosophy.

The second is the "that is so cruel and mean that I want to be sure that *I* never do that to someone else" also known as the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" philosophy.

The latter allows us to rise above them and attain support and sympathy from the rest of the world who will, through less violent means, help us attempt to irradicate this method of "warfare" from the world.

The former allows the evil (not the specific acts of violence, but the thinking behind them) to propigate and win and we essentially become terrorists ourselves.

I just hope that we do not respond to terrorists by becoming terrorists.

<steps down off soapbox>