JUDGE: PRES. BUSH'S WIRETAP PROGRAM VIOLATES CONSTITUTION & MUST STOP - Page 4

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 08:33 AM

Not really. People who are that paranoid don't vote, because they're sure it'll get them on a list.

Pie · 08-21-2006, 08:38 AM

Every time I talk with my mom in Arizona, I make sure to throw in a few statements for the NSA... Wouldn't want them to get bored.

Flint · 08-21-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

that paranoid

But, which part of what I said isn't actually happening?
Other than the specific content of the calls, which we don't know.

It's an article of faith that these methods are being used responsibly.

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:05 AM

Almost all of what you said isn't happening. But if it's helpful to consider, you make a similar leap of faith just driving down the highway. The chances that you'll be shot by local cops in a case of mistaken identity is much greater than being tied into international terror because you said you hate Bush on a international phone call.

My friends are still all present and accounted-for.

Flint · 08-21-2006, 09:12 AM

If you remove the clearly speculative phone-call aspect of it, which parts of what I said aren't happening?

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:14 AM

I can't prove a negative. Which parts of what you said ARE happening?

Flint · 08-21-2006, 09:16 AM

Just define what you meant by "almost all" . . .

Spexxvet · 08-21-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Almost all of what you said isn't happening. But if it's helpful to consider, you make a similar leap of faith just driving down the highway. The chances that you'll be shot by local cops in a case of mistaken identity is much greater than being tied into international terror because you said you hate Bush on a international phone call.

My friends are still all present and accounted-for.

Do you happen to be friends with former ambassador Wilson? This administration penalizes dissent or opposition. That's why I don't trust unsupervised phone survailance. You may not disappear, but Zey Haff Vays uff making you pay.

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:18 AM

Well my guess is that only one of the things you mentioned is happening.

MaggieL · 08-21-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

That sure was hate speech, IMHO. So on the Democrat side, there's Jesse Jackson. On the repubican side, ther's Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, Savage, Liddy, et al, some of whom have been around for decades.

That wasn't exhaustive, it was a counterexample intended to show you're cherrypicking...not hard to do on either side.

Flint · 08-21-2006, 09:25 AM

This is a general, speculative point. We know that when "terror suspects" are involved, it is considered a case where the due process of law goes out the window, and we feel that is justified for the greater good.

My line of thought is: how flexible is the definition of "terror" . . .

Also: given a power such as this, how likely is it that it will be abused? If so, how long before it is abused? And in that case, will it be too late for us to be able to determine the difference, the veil of secrecy having been established by our current actions?

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:31 AM

Spex, a special prosecutor was appointed to specifically to look into your theory, and it didn't even turn up any blowjobs. Never mind that Amb. Wilson is still with us, and untortured (he looked really good in that Armani at the Correspondents Dinner).

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:46 AM

My opinion is that as long as people are alert to, and concerned about, violations of civil liberty, those violations are much less likely to occur. The real threat comes from the corners where we aren't pointing our flashlights.

We don't even know what's in those corners. Our best bet is to be educated, active, thinking, concerned people and then hope for the best.

Flint · 08-21-2006, 09:52 AM

Where does knocking someone as "paranoid" factor into that proactive plan?

EDIT :::answers own question::: The determination between real an imagined threats helps us respond where response is actually warranted... Weeding out the loonies helps to prevent others from being dis-credited?

Undertoad · 08-21-2006, 09:57 AM

If your dog barks at people he doesn't know, he is good as a watch dog.
If your dog barks at everything, he is useless as a watch dog.

The brightest flashlight also casts the harshest shadow and blinds your night vision.

I got a million of these

08-21-2006, 08:38 AM	#47
Pie Gone and done Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 4,808	Every time I talk with my mom in Arizona, I make sure to throw in a few statements for the NSA... Wouldn't want them to get bored. __________________ per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not.

08-21-2006, 09:12 AM	#50
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If you remove the clearly speculative phone-call aspect of it, which parts of what I said aren't happening? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-21-2006, 09:16 AM	#52
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Just define what you meant by "almost all" . . . __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-21-2006, 09:25 AM	#56
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	This is a general, speculative point. We know that when "terror suspects" are involved, it is considered a case where the due process of law goes out the window, and we feel that is justified for the greater good. My line of thought is: how flexible is the definition of "terror" . . . Also: given a power such as this, how likely is it that it will be abused? If so, how long before it is abused? And in that case, will it be too late for us to be able to determine the difference, the veil of secrecy having been established by our current actions? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-21-2006, 09:52 AM	#59
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Where does knocking someone as "paranoid" factor into that proactive plan? EDIT :::answers own question::: The determination between real an imagined threats helps us respond where response is actually warranted... Weeding out the loonies helps to prevent others from being dis-credited? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 08-21-2006 at 09:55 AM.

08-21-2006, 08:33 AM	#46
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Not really. People who are that paranoid don't vote, because they're sure it'll get them on a list.

08-21-2006, 09:05 AM	#49
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Almost all of what you said isn't happening. But if it's helpful to consider, you make a similar leap of faith just driving down the highway. The chances that you'll be shot by local cops in a case of mistaken identity is much greater than being tied into international terror because you said you hate Bush on a international phone call. My friends are still all present and accounted-for.

08-21-2006, 09:14 AM	#51
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I can't prove a negative. Which parts of what you said ARE happening?

08-21-2006, 09:18 AM	#54
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Well my guess is that only one of the things you mentioned is happening.

08-21-2006, 09:31 AM	#57
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Spex, a special prosecutor was appointed to specifically to look into your theory, and it didn't even turn up any blowjobs. Never mind that Amb. Wilson is still with us, and untortured (he looked really good in that Armani at the Correspondents Dinner).

08-21-2006, 09:46 AM	#58
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	My opinion is that as long as people are alert to, and concerned about, violations of civil liberty, those violations are much less likely to occur. The real threat comes from the corners where we aren't pointing our flashlights. We don't even know what's in those corners. Our best bet is to be educated, active, thinking, concerned people and then hope for the best.

08-21-2006, 09:57 AM	#60
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	If your dog barks at people he doesn't know, he is good as a watch dog. If your dog barks at everything, he is useless as a watch dog. The brightest flashlight also casts the harshest shadow and blinds your night vision. I got a million of these

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