Chief Illiniwek

[freshnesschronic]

Dude it just seems like you think everyone in America should think like you. Are you speaking for everyone who is an American?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hell no, I speak for myself just like you or anyone else. Even points that are linked, doesn't make it so, it just shows how the poster came by their view. On the other hand, bluecuracao wants everyone to think like her. No, that's not true, but I believe she would like everyone to have her view of Indians and Mexicans.
She and I have disagreed of minority issues before, and I have the greatest respect for her and her right to her opinions. I just don't agree with many of them.
Do you think I make it up as I go along? No, I got my opinions about Indians the old fashioned way, I earned them.

Actually the Indians is something I've done quite a bit of research on, but only when they were a player in the shaping of the country. After that, only information what happens to come my way, like everyone else rather than active looking. Some current tid bits I hear from an old girlfriend because she has a lot of contact with Indian dance troops across the country.

But, none of that has anything to do with sports mascots, because that was then and this is now. Anyone that sees Chief Illiniwek or Wahoo and assumes that's what Indians either were, and/or are, like, shouldn't be out of the home without an orderly. Seriously, if they can't see the difference between mascot behavior and real people behavior, they need to see Dr Wolf.

[Undertoad]

I can imagine no bigger honor, than if a group I was in was used in some cartoonish way as the team mascot for a major sports organization.

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

[elSicomoro]

I'd volunteer to be the prototype for the mascot.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I can imagine no bigger honor, than if a group I was in was used in some cartoonish way as the team mascot for a major sports organization.

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

Although given the fact the mascot supposedly honouring the Illiniwek was dressed as a Sioux, it would be a fat guy in a blouse and skirt and a woman in sweats.....

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

I object! By depicting the office worker as a woman you insult my manhood.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The Smithsonian has had a considerable collection of Indian stuff, long before it became fashionable to break up their stuff into dedicated museums.
That's just a fund raising ploy, anyway.

True, they've had a lot of Indian Stuff for a long time, but isn't it a little bit possible the Native American Museum was built to show more of that stuff? Though, The Smithsonian does need funds to keep going; I don't think they're trying pull anything over on the public.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You're an expert on what people think and why? Why are you determined to educate the public about what Indians are doing now.
I suspect as long as you don't interfere with them doing their thing, most people have more than a passing interest in, or care if, you're doing your thing. That was the general idea when the Constitution was written. Granted, it's been severely strained, but it's still a good idea.
Case in point, most people don't even know what their Congress Critters are doing and that's something that effects them profoundly.

You got that right. I think of everyone that belongs here as Americans. I'd rather dwell on what we have in common, even though that's become unfashionable. Everyone is running around declaring they are different, they are special, which is usually followed by why they should get preferential treatment.

What I understand from this is that you consider cultural diversity as something merely in fashion, and you think that when someone shares information about other cultures, they're wasting their time. OK, fine. But that contradicts your apparent interest in The Smithsonian.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Foul. Culture is an English word. It can't have a different meaning for different communities. You have to establish what the word culture encompasses. Once thats established, the circumstances, the problems, and solutions can vary from place to place but not the definition of culture. You've just proven my statement that people used it as a catch all, by doing just that.

I didn't say the word "culture" has different definitions. I said the same thing you're saying now.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You have no idea what I know. You said We were both talking about a specific individual . I said Still speaking of a specific individual and his circumstances. I still say your statement was bullshit applied to that specific individual.
I don't care how many return to their roots, I wasn't discussing that. I was talking about how one individual escaped a hell hole and became a productive member of a community instead of living on welfare and bitching. Again, if you can't support yourself where you're at, move.

Alright. But this specific individual's circumstances seem to form the basis of your opinion that Native Americans overall have these circumstances. I presented to you another scenario. Sorry you're not interested in it.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's right they didn't. The smart ones adjusted, adapted and evolved with the developing circumstances. The ones that persisted in fighting went the way of the Sandhill Cranes. Human beings? More specific than that, Americans. I don't think any of the tribes are issuing passports yet, are they?
I really don't care what they are doing north or south of our borders.

There's more to it than that. Some tribes didn't fight, and didn't survive long enough to adapt. There are others who fought who are still around. The matter of smart vs. not smart, won vs. got their ass kicked can't be applied as a sweeping generalization to all Native Americans. And Native Americans are not only those who live within the U.S. borders. You may not care about any of this, but that's reality.

All I can do is share my point of view and the facts I know. If someone makes statements which look like they're based on error or lack of knowledge, I like to try to help out. Isn't that what we all do here, more or less?

As an aside, I don't know a thing about Sandhill Cranes and figured they were extinct or close to it based on your analogy, so I looked 'em up and found out that, "Sandhill Cranes are the most abundant of the world’s cranes."

[wolf]

Originally Posted by sycamore

I'd volunteer to be the prototype for the mascot.

So would I, except that I don't bother with the ALT-TAB. I just keep typing and say, "Yeah, I'll be with yah when I'm done with this witty quip."

[Flint]

I keep The Cellar minimized to just inside the window of one of my work applications. Since my hand is already on the mouse, I just click outside The Cellar to bring my "work" to the top. Reaching for <Alt+Tab> would be awkward. Although I did see a window-switching USB footswitch somewhere.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

True, they've had a lot of Indian Stuff for a long time, but isn't it a little bit possible the Native American Museum was built to show more of that stuff? Though, The Smithsonian does need funds to keep going; I don't think they're trying pull anything over on the public.

Sure it was, but I think the wasted space in the design could have been put to better use displaying more things. They never have enough space to display it all. I agree the Smithsonian isn't trying to pull a fast one, they've just discovered they can raise more money having specific museums to target specific groups for support. Right now they need a ton of money to restore/repair the Castle and some other older buildings that are falling apart.

What I understand from this is that you consider cultural diversity as something merely in fashion, and you think that when someone shares information about other cultures, they're wasting their time. OK, fine. But that contradicts your apparent interest in The Smithsonian.

Yes I see it's in fashion and being jammed down peoples throats where I work. I feel cultural diversity is the most insidious and divisive ploy perpetrated on the American citizens, ever. Divide and conquer. Play down what we all have in common, the thing that unites us, and weaken the voice of the people that keeps the government and big business in check.

Those people down the block, those people in the next town, those people that live south/north/east/west of you, they are [chilling voice] different. [voice] Damn, those people are different....I wonder if they eat babies. We have nobody to protect us except.....wait for it.......the government.

You've heard the government should fear the people, not the people fear the government. Well the government doesn't have to fear a people that are so divided they can't raise a collective objection. And wouldn't because they need Uncle Sam to protect them from the baby eaters.

I find different groups and their customs/lifestyles interesting. But I haven't the time left on Earth to investigate them in depth...there's just too many. Just around Philly there's a whole bunch of diverse groups like the Mennonites, Amish, Quakers and more.

I didn't say the word "culture" has different definitions. I said the same thing you're saying now.

OK.

Alright. But this specific individual's circumstances seem to form the basis of your opinion that Native Americans overall have these circumstances. I presented to you another scenario. Sorry you're not interested in it.

The reservation this guy escaped from and many more I've either seen myself or on PBS, have nothing to offer, no work, no commerce, sometimes no schools, and no money to change that, evidently.
I understand you're saying there are viable reservations or communities that do offer opportunity. But my saying bullshit was to the suggestion that this guy should entertain that possibility. It's an impossibility, not because he's dismissed his roots, but because it's just not possible there.

There's more to it than that. Some tribes didn't fight, and didn't survive long enough to adapt. There are others who fought who are still around. The matter of smart vs. not smart, won vs. got their ass kicked can't be applied as a sweeping generalization to all Native Americans. And Native Americans are not only those who live within the U.S. borders. You may not care about any of this, but that's reality.

If they don't live in the US then I don't care what they think, especially about Wahoo or Illiniwek.

All I can do is share my point of view and the facts I know. If someone makes statements which look like they're based on error or lack of knowledge, I like to try to help out. Isn't that what we all do here, more or less?

Certainly, that's why when I disagree I argue my position, rather than dismiss or ignore, call you names, or question your intelligence.
You know...... don't take in personal, don't make it personal.

As an aside, I don't know a thing about Sandhill Cranes and figured they were extinct or close to it based on your analogy, so I looked 'em up and found out that, "Sandhill Cranes are the most abundant of the world’s cranes."

In the US, Sandhills are one of the birds they hand raise and lead their migration with someone in an ultra-light playing Mama. The Sandhills came to mind because of a recent news item saying this year's migration to Florida resulted in all but one of the babies being killed by tornados.

This very sad picture of Five Crows, at his grandsons Arlington funeral, was in the Washington Post, a couple months ago. A lot of people saw this picture in the paper and on the net.
I refuse to believe that ANYONE seeing this picture thinks of Wahoo. Or seeing Wahoo in the spring, they will think of Five Crows.

You can only be insulted if you are a pussy with low self esteem. You choose to be insulted or not.
I am both Irish and Native American, I see them for what they are, caricatures, nothing more or less... people need to get a damn life.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

You can only be insulted if you are a pussy with low self esteem.

Huh, never thought of it THAT way. I always figured the pussies with low self esteem were the ones who didn't speak up for what they believed in. :p

[xoxoxoBruce]

They're the ones that get insulted.
The opposites know someone is trying to insult them, but can't, because they refuse to let it happen. It's the old sticks and stones thing.

Hey blue, I have a question. You said I see Indians in 18th/19th century terms, or some words to that effect, and you would rather teach people about where Indians are today.

But whenever I see Indians going to a venue to communicate with the general public, they only demonstrate dances, crafts and skills they have been practicing for centuries....and usually in costume. The heritage, the old ways, if you will.

I know there are rug weavers, jewelry makers and potters that are doing innovative modern designs, but this rarely is publicized, if you don't have contact with the actual artists/craftsmen, in their own environment.

Am I just traveling in the wrong circles or when they show this modern stuff, they don't convey that they are in fact Indians. Now my ex always ridiculed me for being thick, because she could rattle off ethnicity, heritage, religion and a host of other information at a glance. She was often right if I got a chance to check.
But I never cared that much about that stuff so I developed no skill. I may be missing Indians around me every day other than the two that told me.

I guess that was a long winded way of asking if most Indians, outside of Indian communities, keep a low profile or am I just missing it?

[bluecuracao]

That's a tough question to answer. From my own perspective, I don't really see the low-profile thing. Out here on the east coast, I only occasionally participate in social, political or spiritual activities (if someone doesn't tell me about them, I'll look them up myself--a lot of events are on the internet), but sometimes I get approached and approach others, try to keep up on the news, and go back to visit my family somewhat regularly in New Mexico.

You might've missed out on a good opportunity with you ex--she sounds like she really knew what was going on in the Indian world. But you mentioned you're Scottish...threatened with death, I couldn't begin to tell you the significance of kilts or what tartan belongs to what clan. So maybe we're in the same boat.

As for the old ways...they're just the continuing ways. The ways of dress in religious rites, well, how long have Catholic priests worn robes? It's not all that different.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Ha, you don't know my ex. She had no particular insight on Indians, she was only on the lookout for reasons to be judgmental and catty.

Sure, for conducting a traditional funeral ceremony, Five Crows wore traditional robes, but in his day to day, he probably wears the same thing most of the men is his region wear. If you look at his son sitting next to him, he looks like Joe Anybody, homogenized American.

That can be a good thing in that it give us more in common, and makes one less hurdle to trust and acceptance. On the other hand it does make life a little more bland....less colorful.