If the indians had been republican

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yes it is, but these people and Bush, are not changing it for the better.

What is better? That is just opinion, even though I highly disagree with Bush on his stance on immigration for other reasons.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

They love the money they can make. They love the fact they can move around relatively unimpeded. They love the fact that they can flaunt the law with relative impunity. They love getting free medical care at the expense of others.

Oh please, I work with Mexican immigrants and most are here to feed their families, not to flaunt their immunity or take our wealth. Most just want to achieve the American dream. You even said it yourself.

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=366418&postcount=67

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Horseshit, the American dream is not to become a millionaire. The American dream is to not skip any meals, not to watch your children die, to have a job so you can provide for you and yours, to be able to send your kids to school, and maybe own a home but at least have shelter. That's why all those immigrants came here.... because they couldn't get those basic things at home.

Yet somehow this is different for Mexicans?

If my family was starving in Mexico and I had to come to the US illegally to not see them starve, I would. It is a conflict of interests, not a good versus evil situation.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But they don't love this country, they are Mexicans with no desire to be Americans. Their allegiance is to a foreign country, which is why they fly a foreign flag.

You are making a huge assumption. How do you know that every illegal Mexican immigrant has no desire to be American? You are taking a minority and saying that every Mexican immigrant does that, which is flawed logic.

Also, I am sure many Mexicans do not want to join American culture but you can find that with almost every immigrant group. I've been in other highly immigrant influenced areas and they feel like a totally different country and it also seems that they also have no desire to become Americans as well.

There is no Mexican conspiracy to take advantage of Americans, the majority just want to feed their kids since there are no jobs in Mexico which creates a huge conflict of interests.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

And just because you don't believe that undocumented immigrants pay enough into the tax system, doesn't make it untrue.

And the reverse of that statement does not make yours true either. Back it up. Let me guess, you will find some left wing pro-immigrant site to find your sources.


The American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives; Los Angeles Times; Washington Post; Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons are hardly right-wing sources.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives; Los Angeles Times; Washington Post; Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons are hardly right-wing sources.

Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is indeed right wing. You quoted Rep. Gary Miller's page specifically, from the U.S. House of Representatives' site--not the House in general.

I don't see your links to the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post. I have a feeling I've seen the ones you're talking about, though. Post 'em so I can see if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

What is 'The American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation?' The only place I see that is here:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecenters64bf

and that site is about as biased as you can get.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And the reverse of that statement does not make yours true either. Back it up. Let me guess, you will find some left wing pro-immigrant site to find your sources.

I did--the IRS.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What is better? That is just opinion, even though I highly disagree with Bush on his stance on immigration for other reasons.

Better is where every able bodied adult citizen has a job that pays a living wage.

Oh please, I work with Mexican immigrants and most are here to feed their families, not to flaunt their immunity or take our wealth. Most just want to achieve the American dream. You even said it yourself.

Are they legal? If so, God bless them, I hope they do well. If not, they are criminals and thieves. My employer doesn't hire non-citizen for my area.

Yet somehow this is different for Mexicans?

No, for illegals of every stripe.

If my family was starving in Mexico and I had to come to the US illegally to not see them starve, I would. It is a conflict of interests, not a good versus evil situation.

Legal=good, illegal=bad, in this situation. Conflict of interests for sure, criminals interests vs American interests.

You are making a huge assumption. How do you know that every illegal Mexican immigrant has no desire to be American? You are taking a minority and saying that every Mexican immigrant does that, which is flawed logic.

You a making a flawed assumption. Nobody can speak for every illegal because that's impossible. We, even bluecuracao, speak in generalities because it's the only way the subject can be discussed at all. So don't pull the nit pic shit, ok?

Also, I am sure many Mexicans do not want to join American culture but you can find that with almost every immigrant group. I've been in other highly immigrant influenced areas and they feel like a totally different country and it also seems that they also have no desire to become Americans as well.

Is that so, totally different country... hmm, are the road signs in English? I'd love to go there, just to get away from McBurgers, Quicky mart, Dairy twirl and pizza chains.
Of the groups of immigrants that came legally, the non-criminals, most made every effort to become Americans, become part in the social and political fabric. Even when the settled in areas with people from their home area of the world, they made sure their kids learned English, recited the Pledge of Allegiance with pride and flew the American flag.
It's after assimilating for generations, the spawn of these immigrants put foreign flag decals on their cars. Their forefathers are doing 78 rpm in their graves.

There is no Mexican conspiracy to take advantage of Americans, the majority just want to feed their kids since there are no jobs in Mexico which creates a huge conflict of interests.

SYLLABICATION: con·spir·a·cy
PRONUNCIATION: kn-spîr-s
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. con·spir·a·cies
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

It would appear you're wrong again, although a conspiracy by Mexicans would be more appropriate than a Mexican conspiracy which sort of implies the Mexican government is party to it. Although... on second thought... maybe not.

We all know there are not enough jobs in Mexico. Not even service sector because they are being served here.
I posted before of the Smithsonian article about the Mexican millionaire from NJ, that went back to build 5 clothing factories, each to employ 2500 people. After the first factory was built, the rest were canceled, because he could not find 500 employees. The people he went to help were all here instead of building a decent place to live at home.

If Mexico was stuck in the middle of the ocean, they would probably have a decent economy going, from all those hard working people without an easier out.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Are they legal? If so, God bless them, I hope they do well. If not, they are criminals and thieves. My employer doesn't hire non-citizen for my area.
Conflict of interests for sure, criminals interests vs American interests.

So there is no way breaking a law can be justified? Depending on how you look at morals, there are situations where you can justify coming to America illegally, not letting your family starve for one.

You a making a flawed assumption. Nobody can speak for every illegal because that's impossible. We, even bluecuracao, speak in generalities because it's the only way the subject can be discussed at all. So don't pull the nit pic shit, ok?

There is a difference from taking a majority view and making a generalization and taking a minority view and making a generalization. Saying that a majority of Mexicans do not want to become Americans is a big stretch.

Of the groups of immigrants that came legally, the non-criminals, most made every effort to become Americans, become part in the social and political fabric. Even when the settled in areas with people from their home area of the world, they made sure their kids learned English, recited the Pledge of Allegiance with pride and flew the American flag.

That is probably true for almost all non-refugee Americans but when people are coming to America at the rate that Hispanics are, it is very hard to think that there isn't a huge problem there.

It would appear you're wrong again, although a conspiracy by Mexicans would be more appropriate than a Mexican conspiracy which sort of implies the Mexican government is party to it. Although... on second thought... maybe not.

Yes, 14 million Mexicans got together to conspire how they were going to illegally cross the Mexican-American border to mock Americans with their immunity. But by that implication, you can say all the car thieves conspired to take our cars and all the pickpockets conspired to take our wallets. So many conspiracies!

We all know there are not enough jobs in Mexico. Not even service sector because they are being served here.
I posted before of the Smithsonian article about the Mexican millionaire from NJ, that went back to build 5 clothing factories, each to employ 2500 people. After the first factory was built, the rest were canceled, because he could not find 500 employees. The people he went to help were all here instead of building a decent place to live at home.

Is this a one time thing or a common occurrence? You also can not simply a problem so complex into something so simple. If it was so easy to build a decent place to live, every country would be a first world country. Duck_duck type thinking doesn't work in real life.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Sorry, biased sources like the conservative "Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons" and extreme-rightie Congressman Gary Miller don't count.

So, your opinion is correct because you are on the left, and actual research doesn't count for anything because you've decided that a peer reviewed journal is too conservative.

Exactly what standard of proof are you looking for here?

[wolf]

I think I have an argument for illegal immigration that's difficult to refute, but I'm hesitant to let the left have it. Nah ... they won't use it anyway.

[elSicomoro]

You fucking tease...out with it.

[wolf]

"God Said So."

The Jews were the first illegal immigrants. God told them there was a land of milk and honey over there that way, go kill or force out everybody living there now, and it's yours.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by wolf

So, your opinion is correct because you are on the left, and actual research doesn't count for anything because you've decided that a peer reviewed journal is too conservative.

Exactly what standard of proof are you looking for here?

What 'actual' research? The materials quoted from the Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons are rife with alarmist, extremist opinion, language, and conjecture. The sources are shaky at best. Anyone can write a commentary piece with made-up numbers, and put official-seeming footnotes in it. And then the footnotes turn out to be from the Op-Ed section of whatever newspaper they're sourcing, or from another website with the same extremist political agenda and twisted 'facts.'

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by wolf

So, your opinion is correct because you are on the left, and actual research doesn't count for anything because you've decided that a peer reviewed journal is too conservative.

Exactly what standard of proof are you looking for here?

I don't think you answered the question Blue, what you are saying could be true of virtually any cite.

[bluecuracao]

No, what I said is not true of virtually any cite. That's why footnotes are usually seen as authoritative and fact-based--they're supposed to be, when they're supporting the credibility of written work.

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Sorry, biased sources like the conservative "Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons" and extreme-rightie Congressman Gary Miller don't count.

You're right, this has all been discussed on previous threads, even before your time here.

Millions of undocumented immigrants have ITINs. And just because you don't believe that undocumented immigrants pay enough into the tax system, doesn't make it untrue.

I worked for the FL Ag system in multiple capacities and other industries in FL and CA where illegals worked, along side them and in administration and management.
That I know it for a fact makes it a untrue.

[bluecuracao]

Know what for a fact?

They do not pay taxes.