Who does homosexuality hurt?

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Personally I don't care if gay people get married or live in sin or live their life however they choose, just as I feel about straight people, or people who aren't sure about their sexuality, or people who choose to have open marriages even. I don't have any reason to stop anyone from living their personal relationships how the choose to, but some people do, and to most of those that do, it comes down to religious beliefs or social beliefs.

Saying that God has nothing to do with the discussion is like saying you don't like how rain makes puddles, so let's only talk about the puddles that appear because of other things.

But els's point, that still hasn't been addressed (i'm not tail-posting here), is that LEGALLY, god CAN'T have anything to do with the discussion. God is not part of the government, and therefore God can not be the reason to deny two people a social contract.

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that I'm 'legally' married doesn't mean anywhere near as much to me as the fact that I feel spiritually bound to my husband. In fact, it doesn't really mean anything to me what the law thinks. This is my issue with the whole legal contract argument. There's more involved in getting married than a simple signing of names. If that's all it was, then there'd be no talking or exchanging of vows. People would just send away for the forms, sign them and then send them back.

Again, that's wonderful, but LEGALLY speaking, it is NOT the government's business at ALL how you feel spiritually. Yes, two people can feel that for eachother and not need marriage at all, but if they want the LEGAL rights associated with the LEGAL contract of marriage, they deserve it. Of course marriage is more than just signing forms. But to the GOVERNMENT, it shouldn't be. In a legal sense, only the legal agreement matters.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Ibram

But els's point, that still hasn't been addressed (i'm not tail-posting here), is that LEGALLY, god CAN'T have anything to do with the discussion. God is not part of the government, and therefore God can not be the reason to deny two people a social contract.





Again, that's wonderful, but LEGALLY speaking, it is NOT the government's business at ALL how you feel spiritually. Yes, two people can feel that for eachother and not need marriage at all, but if they want the LEGAL rights associated with the LEGAL contract of marriage, they deserve it. Of course marriage is more than just signing forms. But to the GOVERNMENT, it shouldn't be. In a legal sense, only the legal agreement matters.

Just to try and clarify this one more time.

At this point it is illegal for gay people to marry almost everywhere in the world.

Do I agree with this? nope. Not at all.

Why do I think it's illegal? Because it is socially unacceptable at the moment, and until it becomes socially acceptable it will remain illegal.

Why is it socially unacceptable? Because society is underpinned by religious and spiritual beliefs which conflict with facts a lot of the time, but it doesn't change the fact that religion has a big say in what's acceptable and what's not in most societies.

What do I think needs to happen to change things? We as a society need to recognise the rights of the individual to express their love however they choose to do so which may or may not include marriage.

Why hasn't it happened yet? All change takes time. There have been remarkable leaps forward for the gay community over the last 20 years or so, along with many other minority groups. Maybe it's not fast enough, but things are definitely not stagnant.

Do I believe it will happen? Most assuredly yes.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Just to try and clarify this one more time.

At this point it is illegal for gay people to marry almost everywhere in the world.

Do I agree with this? nope. Not at all.

Why do I think it's illegal? Because it is socially unacceptable at the moment, and until it becomes socially acceptable it will remain illegal.

Why is it socially unacceptable? Because society is underpinned by religious and spiritual beliefs which conflict with facts a lot of the time, but it doesn't change the fact that religion has a big say in what's acceptable and what's not in most societies.

What do I think needs to happen to change things? We as a society need to recognise the rights of the individual to express their love however they choose to do so which may or may not include marriage.

Why hasn't it happened yet? All change takes time. There have been remarkable leaps forward for the gay community over the last 20 years or so, along with many other minority groups. Maybe it's not fast enough, but things are definitely not stagnant.

Do I believe it will happen? Most assuredly yes.

What an excellent post.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Ibram

But els's point, that still hasn't been addressed (i'm not tail-posting here), is that LEGALLY, god CAN'T have anything to do with the discussion. God is not part of the government, and therefore God can not be the reason to deny two people a social contract.

The thing to remember though, is the origin behind laws and governance of a populace. Morality comes from a variety of places, yourself or an external source like the Bible or the Qur'an. The point is God has everything to do with the discussion. Take Thomas Jefferson for example. The man is regarded as one of America's most enlightened and influential political thinkers and shapers. The man was not Christian, but a Deist who took morality lessons from the Bible, specifically Jesus, and applied them to society as a whole. His moral foundation, found in Deism and some of Jesus' teachings, very much so shaped how he thought man should interact within society and how governments should relate with men.

Again, that's wonderful, but LEGALLY speaking, it is NOT the government's business at ALL how you feel spiritually. Yes, two people can feel that for eachother and not need marriage at all, but if they want the LEGAL rights associated with the LEGAL contract of marriage, they deserve it. Of course marriage is more than just signing forms. But to the GOVERNMENT, it shouldn't be. In a legal sense, only the legal agreement matters.

I agree 100%.

[classicman]

What about civil unions?

[Aliantha]

Because it's not socially acceptable. That's about the only reason.

When it is socially acceptable to be gay, then I'm sure marriage will be legal.

There is no other reason.

[classicman]

Perhaps it depends on the accepted definition of marriage?

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps it depends on the accepted definition of marriage?

I think Els has been pretty clear on how he defines marriage. It's a simple contract.

How do you define marriage Classic?

[classicman]

For the sake of the argument here is one definition:

Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights declares that "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses." The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam gives men and women the "right to marriage" regardless of their race, colour or nationality, but not religion.

[classicman]

My point is not to disagree with Els, but to say that the argument is more based upon ones accepted definition than anything else.

[Elspode]

...and my point is simply that all current "socially acceptable" definitions of marriage are wrong.

Race, religion, national origin...none of these things are any longer acceptable reasons to deny the right of marriage between two people in any country which we would call, by almost any set of defintions, "civilized".

Yet it is permissable, nay, *legal*, to deny the right of marriage to two individuals strictly based upon the fact that they happen to be of the same sex.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an absolute, logical, moral reason why this should be so. A moral reason not based on any one theology or mythology, but a truly, simply, plainly *moral* reason.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Elspode

right of marriage between two people

Why just 2?

[ZenGum]

Have I waved the great prophet Roy Zimmerman at you all lately?

"It's the Lord's holy word
said my second wife to my third..."

[binky]

Originally Posted by jinx

Why just 2?

Because then you are a Mormon. Marriage is just between a man and a woman, and another woman, and another.....

[classicman]

Oh, well if the definition isn't to your liking then write your congressman.