personhood

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by flint

Of course, fungus can't "drive a car" or "do taxes"

or speak.

Language, to me is what sets us apart. Where we diverged from apes. The ability to transfer thoughts and knowledge among individuals. I know some animals 'speak' to each other by howling or screeching, etc. some like bees and ants communicate chemically.

I'm referring to sharing complex thoughts, like deciding what labels to affix to each other, like 'person' or 'Deterministic' ...and from there to writing/reading, allowing us to share the thought or knowledge wider, more accurately and permanently... to telegraph, to telephone, to TV, to www -sharing faster and faster....

Now, you can learn to build a guitar with your phone, out in your garage.

[Flint]

Communication of abstract concepts is a pretty good trick. Like, we've created our own layer of properties of information, on top of the abstract layer of our own intrinsic qualities which emerged from the deterministic substrate. I'll be closer to being convinced we've done something special when we succeed in creating something able to create it's own, new layer of abstract properties of information which exist above and beyond our own understanding. This may be happening very soon, as we've already seen how quickly rudimentary AI programs can create methods of communication between themselves that we aren't able to decipher, from down here on the dum-dum level.

Originally Posted by sexobon

...I wonder if AI and ET are listening.

"...I, for one, welcome our new [something something] overlords."

When I was living this lie-fear was my game
People would worship and fall-drop to their knees
So bring me the blood and red wine for the one to succeed me
For he is a man and a god-and he will die too...

Tell me why I had to be a power slave
I don't want to die, I'm a god, why can't I live on?
When the Life Giver dies, all around is laid to waste.
And in my last hour,
I'm a slave to the power of death.

[Clodfobble]

But there are cases where the parasite isn't just feeding off of, or damaging us, but actively controlling our behavior. Toxoplasmosis makes mice unafraid of cats, and seems to cause increased risk-taking in humans as well. In the days following an exposure to the flu virus--before symptoms take hold and when the host is the most contagious--humans have been shown to become significantly more social than they normally would be, presumably to unwittingly spread the virus. This has also been demonstrated in the case of flu immunizations, rather than native exposure. Of course participants wrote it off as coincidence, they "just felt like" attending a party they might usually have skipped, but the aggregate numbers show a pattern. So-called "lesser" creatures neurologically control us on a regular basis.

[henry quirk]

"But there are cases where the parasite isn't just feeding off of, or damaging us, but actively controlling our behavior. Toxoplasmosis makes mice unafraid of cats, and seems to cause increased risk-taking in humans as well."

I reckon such invasions are the exception not the rule. And if not: I reckon we'll incorporate such bugs into ourselves, turn them useful, to our advantage (as multi-cellulars did with gut flora).

#

"In the days following an exposure to the flu virus--before symptoms take hold and when the host is the most contagious--humans have been shown to become significantly more social than they normally would be, presumably to unwittingly spread the virus."

I suspect such folks were sociable types to begin with. Misanthropes like me probably aren't moved much by vira or other micro-opportunists.

#

"So-called "lesser" creatures neurologically control us on a regular basis."

'Influence', sure; 'control' mebbe not so much.

[Undertoad]

Look at all you zombies, replying to threads and stuff! There must be some original thought or free will in ya to decide to hit the reply button, and then to choose the words ya did.

Darwin says, organisms are good at things. Every one of them has to have done things well. Every type of beast is built to compete for the ability to reproduce its DNA. All conditions are exploited, all advantages are gained, all wastes are shrugged off. This is refined over millions of years.

We are the beasts that developed a software layer on top of our hardware layer. The hardware layer being the unconscious mind; the software being consciousness (which IMO requires speech), followed by civilization.

And now we've gone through evolution based on that software layer. That's pretty wild!

[henry quirk]

"There must be some original thought or free will in ya to decide to hit the reply button, and then to choose the words ya did."

Well, some folks say "We’re running a program written in the code of unfolding proteins". In other words: we're bio-automata with no choice at all. It's all successful kludge-work playin' itself out. 'I'ness, 'self', 'personhood', these are mirages (evolutionary advantage or just necessary byproduct?).

Other folks think otherwise.

[Undertoad]

It's possible some previous civilization developed here on Earth and then was wiped out, but: they must have been wankers.

SpaceX is aiming to be on Mars by 2024. The hope is to have colonies shortly thereafter, and a city by 2050.

https://www.inverse.com/article/5129...rting-a-colony

And Elon Musk's predictions have always been right. (But his timing has always been way too optimistic.)

[lumberjim]

The universe, in this frame of reference, could be seen as a person. God, if you prefer.

It's self aware through eyes like ours. Eyes like any species that can conceptualize awareness has. Known or unknown to humans. Aware of self and other. And of a higher or lower level of awareness. One law. One life. All connected through the shared emptiness between our atoms.

Ultimate complexity is the horizon point. As infinite a destination as the edge of space, so we'll never actually get there, but it is, I think, The Omega.

You're an important part of it, if only because you contribute your life experience to the sum total (universal) experience. Your life has meaning. Intrinsically, not bestowed.

Have fun with it.

[captainhook455]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

The universe, in this frame of reference, could be seen as a person. God, if you prefer.

It's self aware through eyes like ours. Eyes like any species that can conceptualize awareness has. Known or unknown to humans. Aware of self and other. And of a higher or lower level of awareness. One law. One life. All connected through the shared emptiness between our atoms.

Ultimate complexity is the horizon point. As infinite a destination as the edge of space, so we'll never actually get there, but it is, I think, The Omega.

You're an important part of it, if only because you contribute your life experience to the sum total (universal) experience. Your life has meaning. Intrinsically, not bestowed.

Have fun with it.

Let me do this again.

Dude you are deep.

Sent from my moto e5 supra using Tapatalk

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

… Have fun with it.

Yeahbut, the infinite number of other universes in other timelines and dimensions may not recognize this universe as an intrinsic person within the totality of existence. In which case, it would have to be bestowed.

[captainhook455]

Dude you are deep.

Sent from my moto e5 supra using Tapatalk

[lumberjim]

New bag. Wedding Cake. Not bad, but it is like a sleeping pill with a 3 hour delay. Zzzzzzz

[lumberjim]

Now you're bringing quantum theory into this?

One thing at a time, sir.

[sexobon]

I was just having fun!

What a grouch.

[lumberjim]

still a person