Atheist Plans New Lawsuit Over Phrase 'Under God'

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by lookout123


so then you actually acknowledge that everyone does have some sort of god.

More of an acknowledgement of my own superiority actually.

[lookout123]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


More of an acknowledgement of my own superiority actually.

well, what do they say? one man's faith is another's misguided belief.

edit: that is not an insult. it is true, faith is a personal, unproveable belief.

[SteveDallas]

Originally posted by lookout123


ok, now you are talking state issues, not federal. i don't believe any of those are inforced, but that is unimportant. i would support you in removal of all of those statements. they are exclusionary, even if they aren't enforced.

Gee thanks, I'm glad you think so.

[Troubleshooter]

I think that simply reversing the situation answers the question.

If a christian were forced to acknowledge that there was no god they would be harmed in something that some people take more seriously than eating.

Look at what happened in russia.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by lookout123
god in this case is so non-specific that only an atheist, or possibly some eastern philosophies are left out...

Oh, is that all?

Some statistics:
(I'm not vouching for the site, but it's illustrative enough)

Christian: 76.5%

Jewish: 1.3%
Muslim: 0.5%
Random 'other' which might be considered to have a 'God': 3.7%

Buddhist: 0.5%
Atheist/Agnostic: 0.9%

No religion/none specified: 13.2


So, let's be very generous, and give the whole 3.7% to 'God', and none of the 13.2% to 'no God'. For simplicity, I'll put Buddhist in 'no God', though it's not quite that simple in reality.

So:

76.5% recognise Jesus as divine.

Using God instead (generously) adds 5.5%.

Removing any religious message includes at least an additional 1.4%.

Can you support "under God" over "under Jesus" in order to include 5.5% more people, but 1.4% more aren't worth it?

[BrianR]

You can't please all the people all the time".

Some people will sue over anything. I think they're just attention whores.

I'm ignoring this jerk.

[lookout123]

interesting that they have atheist and agnost in the same category. 2 completely different ideas.

i would expect the muslim, jewish numbers are higher in reality.

but in the end i still look at it from this angle. to remove it is to take something away from the vast majority who place some value in it.

no atheist is forced to say those words, so therefore, how are they injured? i mean tangible injury - not a frustration over "they get to say something i don't believe".

if we were adding the phrase in today i would step back and say it probably wasn't worth it. but it is there, a couple of generations have been raised saying it. the majority value it.

i wouldn't support removing it anymore than i support draining lake powell. sure, maybe it wasn't the best idea to put it there in the first place. but the intention was good, and removing it now only satisfies a small majority who aren't being injured by the current situation.

[Undertoad]

This page suggests that your statistics are good, HM

[glatt]

Having "under God" in the pledge is as bad for the athiests as "not under God" would be for everyone else. Having no mention of God leaves it equal for everyone.

Can you imagine having your child attend school where everyone recites "one nation, not under God, indivisible..."

That's what it's like for the athiests.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by lookout123
interesting that they have atheist and agnost in the same category. 2 completely different ideas.

I put them together for the purpose of my post. They are separate on the page.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Undertoad
This page suggests that your statistics are good, HM

Whoa. I was being very generous. From my link, I thought the 13.2% was people who didn't answer. Undertoad's link lists them as Nonreligious/Secular, which is probably what I'd check.

So how about this?

76.5% recognise Jesus as divine.

Using God instead (generously) adds 5.5%.

Removing any religious message includes at least an additional 14.6%.

Can you support "under God" over "under Jesus" in order to include 5.5% more people, but 14.6% more aren't worth it?

(chances are, it's between 1.4% and 14.6%)

[lookout123]

me personally? yep.

[Happy Monkey]

Remember that if you're ever in the minority.

[lookout123]

i've been in the minority.
1)in college i was one of the few who didnt qualify for financial aid because i didn't belong to a minority group and i worked so i made more than $6000 - no help for you.
2) i was a white guy who made more than $30K in a year so i had the honor of finding a way to pay out more than $45k cash for my son's birth. my wife's company changed ins. plans and neither company would cover the pregnancy. "impossible" pregnancy 2 surgeries( one to sew up her cervix to hold him in) , 5 months of absolute bedrest, invasive ultrasound every 14 days, weekly visits to the ER to stop contractions, shots, meds... i picked it up. and as the financial aid rep at the hospital said "too bad you are a white mutt - we just flew in a whole family from mexico city for the same condition." the hospital ( tax payers) picked up the tab as a good will charity case.

i survived then, i'm sure i can do it again.


edit: i know that is not the type of minority you were referring to, but just thought i'd let you know i've been on the outside looking in before.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask you all this: Never mind the phrase "under God," why should little kids in effect be programmed with a loyalty oath everyday before school? Doesn't that seem a little Orwellian? And why do we have to pledge allegiance to "the flag" - a bit of colored cloth - and only as an after thought "to the Republic for which it stands"?
If we are going to put "The Pledge" under a microscope this way, these issues seem greater to me than the "under God" one. And, by the way, as a Buddhist, I protest being lumped in with those who do not believe in God. My God just doesn't go by the name of "Jesus."