Woman Arrested at Fahrenheit 9/11 Showing...

[Radar]

The woman was not trespassing at any point and couldn't have been charged with it. She bought a ticket to the movies, (actually 2 tickets) and attended with some friends who also bought some. This was her pass to get onto the property. Assuming that there were no signs up saying that you can't hand out government forms, she had no idea of knowing this would bother anyone and in fact it did not bother anyone other than the manager. Note: The manager is not the owner of the property.

The simple and undeniable truth is that she violated the rights of the property owner. Clearly you lack the necessary grasp of the obvious to realize this. She undermined the very foundation of Libertarianism, and you-- an outspoken Libertarian-- are defending her. You could cut the irony with a knife.

Wrong, the simple and undeniable truth is that she did not violate anyone's rights including the theater owner. She was exercising her right to free speech and the manager of the theater either asked her to leave or to stop handing out the forms. She believed she was within her rights to hand them out (and she is if PA state law protects political speech as it does in CA) in the theater. She discussed it with the manager while she continued handing it out. This is also not trespassing. She was trying to convince him to be reasonable and let her finish. The manager presumably told her he would call the police to have her removed. By this time she had finished and left the theater unescorted and was to her car. So she complied with the wishes of the Theater manager (not the theater owner) and left of her own accord as requested. Still not trespassing and still not causing a disturbance. The only disturbance was created by the theater manager. Then when she was near her car, she was called back to the theater by police.

At no point were anyone's property rights violated, and anyone who claims they were is either lacks the brain cells or the honesty to comprehend it. There is no irony, and no inconsistancy in what I'm saying. She exercised her rights and didn't violate anyone else's rights. That is as libertarian as you can get.

The cops were not doing thier job and were not upholding the law. They were called about a disturbance and clearly there was none. The person who was accused of creating a disturbance by the person who actually created it (the theater manager) was on their way to her car and wasn't disturbing anyone. They then called her back and argued with her and when she stood up for her rights and didn't bow down to thier supreme almighty authority as a cop, they got pissed and cuffed her.

[hot_pastrami]

Oh, I see now, Radar... I hadn't realized that you were actually there, and witnessed the entire event. I assume you were there personally, because that's the only way you could know these minute details which are not disclosed in the article, many of which actually contradict the text of the article.

And I didn't realize that I can't enforce anything on my property without erecting a warning sign... I'd better get started making signs, otherwise the pizza guy will be within his rights to start harrassing my houseguests when he gets here... the fact that I ordered a pizza is his pass onto my property! And if I ask him to leave, apparently he can argue with me about it for an indefinite amount of time, while continuing to harrass my houseguests! And I can't call the cops, because the pizza guy is acting within his RIGHTS!

If that's Libertarianism, I want no part in it. I prefer freedom, and the property rights that come with it.

[hot_pastrami]

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that the theater should have called the police on a matter such as this... I think that was a lousy way to deal with the problem, and makes them out to be assholes. But just as she has the right to be a bitch, they have the right to be assholes. They were within their legal rights. The cops were just doing their jobs, which is to uphold the law, and not arresting a woman for any anti-Bush sentiments, real or imagined.

Hell, I went head-to-head with a theater manager once when he insulted my wife and I, and called him some unsavory names... and they threated to have security remove me from the theater. They would have been within their legal rights to toss me out, despite the fact that they initiated the conflict. But they realized that it wasn't worth the bad karma, and backed off.

[Happy Monkey]

Maybe she can be charged with a third degree demeanor for intending to create a public convenience.

[Undertoad]

Radar thinks, like the woman thought, that the theatre itself is different than the parking lot. In actual fact most such retail situations have a single owner and the theatre is leasing the property, and so the law applies equally in both locations and the cops are well aware of the desires of the property owner. There is almost a blanket ban on solicitation in such places and it's even likely that the theatre, like most malls, has a "no soliciting" sign on their door.

In our township, 20 miles from where the incident occurred, the Regal Cinema is actually so tight with the local cops that every Friday and Saturday night there's one car on permanent patrol there. You can wager they are absolutely aware of the location's policies.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

In our township, 20 miles from where the incident occurred, the Regal Cinema is actually so tight with the local cops that every Friday and Saturday night there's one car on permanent patrol there. You can wager they are absolutely aware of the location's policies.

They have the same deal over in Upper Merion Township. I usually spend some time chatting with the officer posted from that department, since i know most of them.

I haven't noticed visible police presence at Plymouth Meeting, though.

[lumberjim]

is handing out voter registration forms considered solicitation?

[Undertoad]

(voter reg considered solicitation) It sure is.

I have been kicked off of several private properties for doing this sort of thing. Mostly collecting ballot signatures, which is lightly partisan, but the rent-a-cops and such treat you the same no matter what you're doing.

You can sometimes convince a supermarket that you're doing a community service but the commercial property owners are extremely strict.

[Undertoad]

More than that HP... under Radar's interpretation, you'd need the actual property owner to confirm tresspassing. So the pizza guy could just step into your neighbor's yard and continue to harass at will, until the actual property owner is located, at which time the police could actually act.

In fact, if the neighbor's on vacation, the pizza guy could actually camp on the front lawn and the cops would be powerless.

Lucky actual cops don't apply the law that way... nor would we want them to. I notice from watching the nightly news about Iraq that actual anarchy isn't as much fun as the bands writing songs about it. It seems to involve a lot of fear and people getting killed and not being about to go about your day.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

More than that HP... under Radar's interpretation, you'd need the actual property owner to confirm tresspassing. So the pizza guy could just step into your neighbor's yard and continue to harass at will, until the actual property owner is located, at which time the police could actually act.

Very true. In actuality, I agree with many aspects of true Libertarianism, just not Radar's strange version of it. My anti-Libertarian jab was meant to make a logical point using irony, not intended as a true criticism against Libertarianism itself. I wasn't sure if I made that clear enough in my posting.

[Radar]

Oh, I see now, Radar... I hadn't realized that you were actually there, and witnessed the entire event. I assume you were there personally, because that's the only way you could know these minute details which are not disclosed in the article, many of which actually contradict the text of the article.

Oh, you mean like the way you knew the exchange took 20 minutes?

And I didn't realize that I can't enforce anything on my property without erecting a warning sign... I'd better get started making signs, otherwise the pizza guy will be within his rights to start harrassing my houseguests when he gets here..

Nobody said you had to have a warning sign, but you can't expect someone to know what behavior you do or do not condone on your property without one. Handing out voter registration forms is perfectly socially acceptable in virtially all locations without anyone being upset so most wouldn't assume you'd be put off by it.

the fact that I ordered a pizza is his pass onto my property! And if I ask him to leave, apparently he can argue with me about it for an indefinite amount of time, while continuing to harrass my houseguests! And I can't call the cops, because the pizza guy is acting within his RIGHTS!

If you order a pizza and he delivers it and you don't pay him, he won't leave your property and he'd be more than happy for you to call the police. And if he were to hand out voter registration forms to your guests while waiting for the police, he still hasn't committed trespass.

If that's Libertarianism, I want no part in it. I prefer freedom, and the property rights that come with it.

That is libertarianism. In libertarianism you do get your freedom and your property rights. But in Libertarianism your property rights don't override the rights of others to express themselves freely. You may ask someone to leave your home and even force them to leave if they don't comply. But if they are discussing it with you to see if you can work out a compromise and then leave after the conversation, your rights haven't been violated. Your rights don't include silencing anyone no matter what property you own. If you don't like that, I suppose you don't like libertarianism, or natural rights, or human nature, or reality.

is handing out voter registration forms considered solicitation?

It most certainly is not. Solicitation would be if they were selling voter registration forms or magazine subscriptions, etc. They were handing out a government form and had nothing to gain by doing it so it is not solicitation.

Very true. In actuality, I agree with many aspects of true Libertarianism, just not Radar's strange version of it. My anti-Libertarian jab was meant to make a logical point using irony, not intended as a true criticism against Libertarianism itself. I wasn't sure if I made that clear enough in my posting.

I don't have a version of Libertarianism. I use the same version of libertarianism that has been used by all libertarians for the last 300+ years. Your attempts to point out irony have failed because nothing I've said contradicts libertarianism.

This woman did not violate anyone's rights, especially not property rights and anyone who claims she did is a liar. She exercised her rights and did not violate anyone else's rights. That is the essence of libertarianism.

And for the example you used, let's say the pizza guy lives next door to you and he wants to stand on the edge of his yard and hand out voter registration forms to your guests who come close enough for him to hand them the form. You have no legal right to stop him.

[hot_pastrami]

Originally Posted by Radar

Oh, you mean like the way you knew the exchange took 20 minutes?

If you read the post where I stated that, it was a guess. I didn't post it as fact, as you did with all of your unfounded assumptions. I'm a big enough man to admit that my assumption may have been wrong, though Wolf's info does support the possiblity that I am right.

Originally Posted by Radar

Nobody said you had to have a warning sign, but you can't expect someone to know what behavior you do or do not condone on your property without one.

I can expect them to know what behavior I do or do not condone if I TELL them, just as the theater did! Hooray for logic!

Originally Posted by Radar

Handing out voter registration forms is perfectly socially acceptable in virtially all locations without anyone being upset so most wouldn't assume you'd be put off by it.

Virtually is NOT all. It obviously was NOT acceptable there, or they wouldn't have asked her to leave. Reasoning is our friend.

Originally Posted by Radar

If you order a pizza and he delivers it and you don't pay him, he won't leave your property and he'd be more than happy for you to call the police. And if he were to hand out voter registration forms to your guests while waiting for the police, he still hasn't committed trespass.

Just for future reference... changing the metaphor so that it is LESS like the reality does not make it more useful. In fact, it makes it LESS useful. Funny how that works.

There is no parallel to the "don't pay him" qualifier. Now, if the woman had tried handing out the forms before the movie, and had then been allowed neither admittance nor refund, that might apply. But that isn't what happened. Your adjusted metaphor is useless in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Radar

That is libertarianism.

I have no doubt that you believe that.

Originally Posted by Radar

This woman did not violate anyone's rights, especially not property rights and anyone who claims she did is a liar.

Yeah... I could also say that anyone who claims she didn't violate someone's rights is a retard who smells like ricotta cheese. But saying it doesn't make it so, does it? Nor does it strengthen an argument. It just brings back memories of the "liar liar pants on fire" defense from the third grade.

Originally Posted by Radar

And for the example you used, let's say the pizza guy lives next door to you and he wants to stand on the edge of his yard and hand out voter registration forms to your guests who come close enough for him to hand them the form. You have no legal right to stop him.

See above regarding the uselessness of making the working metaphor less like the actual events. If the facts don't support your argument, you're mistaken. You can't adjust the facts to fit your flawed reasoning.

[Brigliadore]

Long post warning:

Originally Posted by Radar

It most certainly is not. Solicitation would be if they were selling voter registration forms or magazine subscriptions, etc. They were handing out a government form and had nothing to gain by doing it so it is not solicitation.

The dictionary lists the definition of solicitation to be : 1 : the practice or act or an instance of soliciting. The Dictionary defines soliciting to be: 1 a : to make petition to : ENTREAT b : to approach with a request or plea 2 : to urge (as one's cause) strongly.

The request was to please take a flyer. That falls under the very definition of soliciting someone.

I used to volunteer for a group that had Canned Food Drives several times a year. We did it for the local food bank which then gave the food to poor and homeless members of the community. We always held them in front of a local grocery store. It was a win win situation. People would see us going into the store and buy cans specifically to donate on the way out. The grocery store made money off our food drive. We "had nothing to gain" by putting on the food drive. Yet EVERY SINGLE TIME we wanted to hold a drive we had to get permission from the store first. Sometimes they didn't give it to us, and we respected that choice and held it at a different store (getting permission from that store). Its private property (yes the sidewalk between the store and the parking lot belongs to the store), and we had to get permission. A grocery store that only profits from a food drive still has the right to tell a group no they cant hold one. So why doesn't the theater have a right to tell a woman no when she hands out flyer's without permission?

Someone comes to my house and does something I don't like, I then ask them to leave. They leave my house but mill around my driveway for several more min. They haven't actually left yet. The driveway is still part of my property. The theater is the same, whether they lease or own the property they still have rights to the parking lot. If they own the property then there is no question that the parking lot is also theirs. Why would someone buy a theater and not the parking space in front of it? If they lease the property they also lease the right for their patrons to use the parking lot. That makes the parking lot every bit their property as if they were the direct owners.

A manager of a store or business has the authority to act on the owners behalf. If I am a manager and I see some kid stealing merchandise I am not going to try and get the owner on the phone and ask if he wants me to let the kid steal the stuff or if he wants me to call the cops. A manager is hired to MANAGE things. That means he is in charge of dealing with anything that comes up and has the authority to act in the owners behalf. That means he has the right to call the cops and tell them someone has been asked to leave and is still milling around the property. Parking lot still equals property.

Was the theater management over reacting on this matter? I think they might have been. Were they within their right to call the cops on her? Hell yes. Both her and the police say she was asked to leave and she refused. Her own words "For them to have stopped me from doing it seemed improper and that’s why I didn’t leave.". She says she didn't leave so she was trespassing. Thats what she should have been charges with but regardless she is not an innocent victim being oppressed by the mighty corporate movie theater. She is in the wrong as much as anyone else who played a part in the whole overreaction.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Radar

That is libertarianism. In libertarianism you do get your freedom and your property rights. But in Libertarianism your property rights don't override the rights of others to express themselves freely. You may ask someone to leave your home and even force them to leave if they don't comply. But if they are discussing it with you to see if you can work out a compromise and then leave after the conversation, your rights haven't been violated. Your rights don't include silencing anyone no matter what property you own. If you don't like that, I suppose you don't like libertarianism, or natural rights, or human nature, or reality.

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

What you're saying is that my right to not be harrassed by Jehovah's Witnesses, on my own property, is trumped by their right to express themselves?

[Radar]

No, I haven't said that at all. I've said that if they came to your door, and asked to speak to you about their religion, and you said you didn't want to learn about it and could they please get off your property, then they asked if there were a better time for you, or whether you'd prefer visitors from a different religion, or if you would at least take a copy of their magazine, before they go, you're rights have not been violated. They have agreed to leave, but wanted to see if they could work something out first.