Vaccination & epidemic

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

This paragraph again makes me think that the label of austim is highly overused.

We've already addressed the issue of whether the prevalence is real; the numbers show conclusively that you're wrong. But if you don't want to slog through statistical proofs, just ask a special ed teacher who works in a public school. The schools know what's going on better than anyone: they're going broke creating new special education classrooms for all these autistic kids. If there is any way these kids can make it in a regular classroom, they try to force them in, because they can't afford all the extra teachers, aides, and therapists these kids require. In turn, you can also ask any general education teacher who's been doing it for 30 years--they, too, will tell you that the kids today are not like the kids were when they first started teaching, and that the low-level spectrum kids that are forced to try to make it in a real classroom are nothing like the social misfits they used to have (and still have in the same numbers today.)

[skysidhe]

It is the law that all children get a chance at being mainstreamed. No one is being FORCED. You have got it backwards.

It's called the The least restrictive environment ( LRE) according to the Individuals with Disabilities Act.( IDEA) It's cheaper to have a separate class and parents have to fight to get services to provide mainstreaming but the law is on their side.

It wouldn't matter to you that I have been a special ed TA for the last twenty years because you are always right even when what you say flies in the face of law and reason.



http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

It is the law that all children get a chance at being mainstreamed. No one is being FORCED. You have got it backwards.

It's called the The least restrictive environment ( LRE) according to the Individuals with Disabilities Act.( IDEA) It's cheaper to have a separate class and parents have to fight to get services to provide mainstreaming but the law is on their side.

It wouldn't matter to you that I have been a special ed TA for the last twenty years because you are always right even when what you say flies in the face of law and reason.



http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/lre.osers.memo.idea.htm

Then how come I keep seeing articles in the paper about parents disrupting school board meetings, and even filing lawsuits, to create and get their kids into, special ed classes?

[Undertoad]

Yes. Because as I've said from the beginning, most if not all of the behaviors are not neurological at all, and not forcibly generated by the lesions; the behavior is in fact an entirely normal response to being in constant, searing pain 24 hours a day and being unable to communicate about it. Ask dar512 to describe his Crohn's pain at its worst, with no medications to help, and now pretend you are a toddler with no understanding of what is going on, and no way to tell anyone what hurts.

This is a new theory on your behalf, because I haven't found a post of yours mentioning both "pain" and "autism" before this one, and one might have found it germane to what we were all discussing.

One might have mentioned it when discussing the neurological effect of heavy metals for example. All that is pretty irrelevant. Anything "brain injury" is now a red herring, isn't it? For example, the Bailey Banks case of "acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis", neurological damage, now irrelevant to the discussion.

It's also pretty much against all the theories about how gut disorders lead to autism. The chart of connections you posted - doesn't mention pain. The alternative autism theory you have seemed to favor, says the gut disorders lead to problems in nutrient deficiency (leading to neurological problems), or by the opiate receptors being taken up (leading to neurological problems).

In fact, the entire GFCF theory is out. Jepson pages 96-97 bold mine:

A leaky gut means that molecules that wouldn't normally gain access can enter the bloodstream. This can lead to immune activation and tissue damage and effects on the brain, including damage to brain tissue. Over the years many patients have reported that their child's behavior improved measurably after gluten and casein were removed from the diet. Gluet is a protein found in grains and casein is a protein found primarily in cow's milk. These proteins have been shown to be highly immune-reactive in children with autism, particularly those with GI symptoms. There is also strong evidence that parts of these protein molecules act directly on the opiate receptors in the brain.

Goodwin et al. were among the first to document an abnormal brain response to gluten from food in autistic children with GI symptoms. Starting in the mid 1980s, several researchers found an elevation of molecules consistent with gliadomorphine (derived from gluten) and casomorphine (derived from casein) peptides in the urine of autistic subjects; these are substances that attach to the opiate receptors in the brain. They also showed that children who maintained a GFCF diet did much better neurologically (improved cognition, language, etc) than those who did not.

They hypothesized that these opioid peptides disrupt normal neurotransmitter function in the brain, creating or contributing to behaviors such as decreased socialization, decreased response to pain, abnormal language, and self-abuse or repetitive behaviors. They also proposed direct effects on the neuronal structure of the brain tissue and on the immune system. They suggested that people with autism are more likely exposted to these opioids because of abnormal digestive enzyme activity, most probably genetically influenced.

So: no neurological opioid connection, no need for GFCF.

How certain are you about this pain theory?

[skysidhe]

I have no idea. I don't know the particulars of the articles you have seen nor have I seen any.

On second thought the only angry parent articles I have seen revolve around the talented and gifted programs but then I am not looking for them either.

I just have to refer to the public law 94-142 and IDEA again. Every child has the right to be in a classroom with their non disabled peers.

edit
Eligibility for services

Having a disability does not automatically qualify a student for special education services under the IDEA. IDEA defines a "child with a disability" as a child . . . with mental retardation, hearing impairments (including deafness), speech or language impairments, visual impairments (including blindness), serious emotional disturbance . . ., orthopedic impairments, autism, traumatic brain injury, other health impairments, or specific learning disabilities; AND, who . . . [because of the condition] needs special education and related services."[7] Children with disabilities who qualify for special education are also automatically protected by Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). However, all modifications that can be provided under Section 504 or the ADA can be provided under the IDEA if included in the student's IEP.
Students with disabilities who do not qualify for special education services under the IDEA may qualify for accommodations or modifications under Section 504 and under the ADA. Their rights are protected by due process procedure requirements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individ...ve_Environment


The best way to fight is to be familiar with the law and the resources and procedures to work within that law.

[Undertoad]

Orac crushes the Hep B monkey study like a bug.

[Pico and ME]

Forced may have been too strong a term, but I believe Clod's sentiment is still correct. If a school system's finances are lacking, then special needs kids are put into regular classroom settings. Im seeing it firsthand with my stepson. We will soon have to go to the state to get his school to cooperate.

[classicman]

Thirded - Pico! I have seen the statistics of kids identified or diagnosed as ADD or ADHD . . . virtually double in our high School. In the middle school its much worse. A decade ago it was probably about 1/3 of what it is now.
This is a lot like lupus - there is not magic bullet test that says "YES." It comes down to an interpretation of symptoms and the elimination of other causal factors.

[skysidhe]

pico

I understand that what people want for their children and educational law make for complicated bed partners.

UT
His savoir - faire makes for some fine reading.

@ classic ...Exactly my point. Diagnosis are doubled and tripled and not everyone just by the virtue of having a diagnosis is going to get special services. It depends upon what the educational law guidelines say.

Actually I am not even arguing with anything but the word forced and the over diagnosing. Oh and the 'not neurological' assertion which was my original reason for posting.

I think the orac blog link makes for a much better subject of debate than what I think. I don't want to quibble so much over semantics.

[Undertoad]

For archival purposes, I have made a local copy of Google's cache of Wikipedia's deleted Desiree Jennings page:

Desiree Jennings

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So: no neurological opioid connection, no need for GFCF.

How certain are you about this pain theory?

Jesus Christ on a cracker, UT. How many different ways can I explain that there are multiple pieces of internal dysfunction, multiple sets of symptoms, and multiple treatments that do not all work for every child? The chart that I attached awhile back didn't specifically mention "pain," because that's not a measurable symptom--instead it mentioned things like "inflammation," which any moron can realize leads to pain.

I haven't been discussing treatment of symptoms because you haven't been discussing it; you've been hammering alternately on vaccines and thimerosal. Pages and pages ago, in fact, the thread did take a little tangent off into treatments, with reference to the idea that if these treatments are working, it is de facto additional evidence that the disorder is autoimmune and the cause is environmental.

But since you're suddenly interested in the treatment of existing cases of autism, I'll give you a basic rundown of the biomedical model.

There are three major components, which all lead to a display of neurological symptoms in their own way: gastrointestinal, immunological, and toxicological. Every autistic child I have met has dysfunction in at least two, if not all three categories, with varying severity. But again, every kid is different.

My son, for example, is highly gastrointestinal and to a lesser degree immunological. The GFCF diet improved his symptoms, but it wasn't a cure. Removing all the foods he was allergic to made him even better, but it still wasn't a cure. A temporary stint on the liquid diet--which serves two purposes, incidentally, both to remove 100% of potential food allergens from his system, as well as to allow digestive damage to heal--is showing even more improvement, but it still is not a cure. (What's more, it does have the negative side effect of promoting intestinal infections, as the formula is the perfect food for bacteria as well. So it generally needs to be tempered with antibiotics so that you don't substitute one digestive problem for another.) But, while he did develop all these food allergies, and didn't get a single illness--not a cold, not a fever, nothing--for almost 2 years, he doesn't seem to have a significant myelin auto-immune component (which is what about half of those autoimmune cites I gave you are talking about--the fact that a huge number of autistic children show de-myelinization in the brain due to the immune system incorrectly targeting the myelin cells, just like it incorrectly targets small intestine cells in a person with celiac disease.) The treatment for de-myelinization is methylated B12 shots, which is what the body uses to repair and create new myelin. My son has not shown significant improvement with these shots, thus we are deducing no significant de-myelinization. We'll be doing the lab tests in another few weeks to find out if he has toxicological problems, but my personal instinct is that I think he probably will not.

On the other hand, my daughter is only very mildly gastrointestinal. Her primary symptom was constipation, rather than diarrhea. Foods did not seem to affect her behavior much, even when the food was causing obvious gastrointestinal problems, such as bright green stools with whole pieces of food completely undigested. And likewise, the liquid diet has shown some small improvements for her, but nothing like what my son has shown. She also had a few allergies, but nowhere near as many as he did, and she gets sick on a normal basis. But, she does seem to have a strong de-myelinization component, as she's been showing very significant improvements in just the last few days, after starting the B12 shots. She's not ready to do the toxicological labs yet, but my personal instinct is that I think she will have a significant toxicological problem, because her blood work has already shown she has an extremely low concentration of glutathione, which is the body's natural substance for removing toxins from the bloodstream. My son, on the other hand, had normal levels of glutathione.

I personally suspect that in 30 years, when these treatments have become more mainstream and had a chance to get real funding to be studied on a large scale, they will determine that there are several identifiable disorders at play here. One disorder that leads to an autoimmune attack on the myelin sheath, another disorder that leads to lesions in the digestive tract, another that breaks the metabolic cycle that removes toxins from the body... the overriding theme being varying levels of chaos in the immune system. Aside from the components that are not well understood yet, many kids with autism have other identifiable immune dysfunction, including celiac disease, Crohn's disease, severe food allergies, environmental allergies... and they've also confirmed that autism runs more strongly in families where the parents have various autoimmune disorders of their own. A mother with celiac disease, for example, is three times more likely to have an autistic child. What this ostensibly shows is a genetic predisposition for immune dysfunction. At which point the question becomes, what environmental factor has changed in the last thirty years, that is causing all of these disorders to be triggered in ever-growing numbers?

Of course you know my opinion on it: a specific type of insult to the immune system, leading to a variety of forms of immune dysfunction, accounting for the rise in not just autism, but also asthma, allergies, celiac disease, Type 1 diabetes, Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. But just like the treatments for these autoimmune diseases are completely different, there are a variety of treatments that alleviate the multiple components of autism.

[Clodfobble]

Also, I read the Orac article, and in my estimation it plays a whole ton of the "what if" game that you're so against, UT. It doesn't find fatal flaws in the study, it merely asks questions about the methodology (Did they account for this thing here? Did they use the same monkeys for study A as in study B?) and then proceeds with an assumption that the answer is negative.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Also, I read the Orac article, and in my estimation it plays a whole ton of the "what if" game that you're so against, UT. It doesn't find fatal flaws in the study, it merely asks questions about the methodology (Did they account for this thing here? Did they use the same monkeys for study A as in study B?) and then proceeds with an assumption that the answer is negative.

I'll re-read it for that, but in the meantime, we'll know if the monkey count is identical in your next email update. Promise to let me know?

[Undertoad]

We're ruling out the morons here, C - the morons think inflammation always leads to pain, but smart people like you know that inflammation and pain are two separate things.

For example, the only inflammation your chart points to is inflammation of the brain. As a very smart person, you know that inflammation of the brain is a neurological problem but pain is not one of its symptoms.

Again I ask, how certain are you about this pain theory? I mean, given that there's so many different paths to the behavior. When you said "the behavior is in fact an entirely normal response to being in constant, searing pain 24 hours a day and being unable to communicate about it", did you mean that:

- All autistic behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction?

- Most autistic behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction?

- Some autistic behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction?

- Some autistic behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction, and some is the result of pain plus other, non-painful problems, neurological or otherwise?

- Both of your offspring's behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction?

- One of your offspring's behavior is the result of pain, and not of a non-painful neurological dysfunction?

- Something else entirely? (explain) (show all work)

Remember, I'm just trying to clarify your statement, so there's no need to get defensive or snippy about it.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

For example, the only inflammation your chart points to is inflammation of the brain.

Nitpick: it points to gut inflammation leading to inflammation of the brain.