Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[Undertoad]

In other words --

If everything goes well now, it doesn't excuse the fact that it was a massive mistake -- in fact things have to go *exceedingly* well for that to be the case, to justify the cost in lives and dollars.

Anti-war, pro-surge would be the correct choice in such a case. (Obama.)

Pro-war, anti-surge would be the incorrect choice in such a case. (Hillary.)

[xoxoxoBruce]

At this point I don't think exceedingly well can ever make up for the fumbling that's been going on in the past four years... for the unnecessary hardship on the Iraqis or our allies, for the cost to the US in men, money and international good will.

Even if Iraq becomes our bestest buddy, this war will cause hate toward the US with their neighbors and throughout the muslim world. I suppose that would happen even if the war had been run right and Iraq was stabilized in the first year, but I think it would have had less impact on muslims, removed from that area, without the years and years of war news.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

At this point I don't think exceedingly well can ever make up for the fumbling that's been going on in the past four years... for the unnecessary hardship on the Iraqis or our allies, for the cost to the US in men, money and international good will.

Even if Iraq becomes our bestest buddy, this war will cause hate toward the US with their neighbors and throughout the muslim world. I suppose that would happen even if the war had been run right and Iraq was stabilized in the first year, but I think it would have had less impact on muslims, removed from that area, without the years and years of war news.

At best we have been treading water for a few years now.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Even if Iraq becomes our bestest buddy, this war will cause hate toward the US with their neighbors and throughout the muslim world.

That dam busted years ago - long before 9/11/2001 - I would guess. Then again the way the conflict has gone and reported certainly didn't help.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

That dam busted years ago - long before 9/11/2001 - I would guess.

Quite the other way around. Respect and admiration for the US by 2000 was probably at an all time high. World wide, American approval ratings were abut 70%. This was especially true in the Middle East when America was supporting the Oslo Accords. Even Syria was secretly a strong US ally. Libya was actively courting a new and friendly relationship with the US. The Dayton Accords set another foundation of repect for how the US ends massacres and overt military conflicts - doing so to protect a mostly Muslim population. Kuwait even renamed a major street after George Sr. Sudan had even changed enough to drive bin Laden out of their country (although by that time, Sudan had all but soaked bin Laden for most of bin Laden's financial net worth).

One of America's strongest allies in the entire world was Turkey.

What has changed since 11 September - when the entire world could not be more closely allied with the US? Well even Turkey has some of the lowest American approval ratings compared to the world. We have even destroyed that relationship with one of our closest allies - Turkey. Even Israel has become concerned. American fubars are so massive that Hamas and Hezbollah have both become popular and stronger. American stupidity even for demanding Palestinian elections was obvioius to all in the region. But America even forced that stupid demand. Pakistan is sitting on a pin head - could easily go either way in a very short time - with just one successful assassination attempt.

This idea that Americans were unpopular among Muslim nations is simply bogus propaganda promoted Limbaugh and other radicals. As that group of 50 ambassadors and generals stated in an open letter so many years ago, George Jr has mostly destroyed relationships with nations that took them 50 years to build.

Richard Holbrook and Charlie Rose discussed this recently. Normally presidents start in office with a domestic agenda. Only years later do they take up international agendas. But the next president will have some of the most challenging international relation problems this nation has ever seen. Two wars; both going badly. First time in history, an international trade conference has failed with blame at America and France. Even American relationships with Mexico and Canada are at all time lows. America was once a nation to respect, to set world agendas, to lead the world in solving new problems, and (if an enemy) to fear. Even American enemies have so less to fear. Could America execute another Dayton Accords or create a bloodless coup in Haiti today? Doubtful. American diplomacy is completely paralyzed by political agenda such as American demands to terminate family planning programs in other nations. American military might is so bogged down as to be a diminished threat even to enemies. We don't even have a Rapid Reaction force - once considered absolutely essential to American security. Even that is bogged down in "Mission Accomplished".

Welcome to the new world order - one the father was not expecting and that the son created. One in which even the Oslo Accords were undermined by America after 2000.

[yesman065]

Great - maybe I'll just go shoot myself - geez tw you gotta be either a droid or the most ddepressing person on the face of the planet. One little offhand remark and you write a chapter on how the sky is falling.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Great - maybe I'll just go shoot myself - geez tw you gotta be either a droid or the most ddepressing person on the face of the planet. One little offhand remark and you write a chapter on how the sky is falling.

Why are you posting emotions? If you think that a sky is falling, then fine. What are your supporting facts to make that conclusion. Your post again reeks of wacko extremist fear of Arabs.

Why do you even entertain such emotions? Why do you let such emotions proclaim that the Arab world mostly hated Americans? That is what Rush Limbaugh needs all to assume so that he can promote propaganda - the hate and fear that Cheney so promotes.

A benchmark identifies many brainwashed by extremism. They believe myths that enemies are out there everywhere hating us and just waiting for oppurtunities to kill us all. Reality - enemies were few to near zero. Reality - most dangerous enemies were really us - ie Timothy McVeigh. The world was not full of hate for America as Limbaugh, Cheney, et al claim. And yet that unjustified assumption results in "That dam busted years ago - long before 9/11/2001 - I would guess." That guess is based in their wacko extremist 'hate and fear' propaganda.

Appreciate the problem that we created because so many Americans foolishly believe wacko propaganda that Arabs mostly hated Americans. It just was not true AND it becomes justificaton for so much hate and fear even of Muslim Americans.

With so much hate and fear, then extremists said Saddam had WMDs to attack America. A lie that they knew only from their feelings; not from facts. Meanwhile Saddam was doing anything he could to be an American friend without destroying his own regime. Somehow that reality got lost in all this 'Arabs hate us' propaganda. Such racist assumptions should be challenged by a long list of contrary facts.

Yesman065 - you posted your bias. You have assumed facts not in evidence - this widespread Arab hatred of America that exists before 11 September. That did not exist except where extremists such as Limbaugh were preaching outright lies and hate. Shame on you for entertaining their racism and then getting emotional again because your emotions were proven wrong by fact, after fact, after fact ...

Get over it. There are not all these people hiding everywhere waiting to kill us all. That fear is the same wacko propaganda that even justified "Mission Accomplished".

We have one enemy. When do we go after bin Laden? How can you see so much hate in the Arab world and yet not ask this damning question often. When do we go after bin Laden? Notice those who promote fear and hate of Arabs never ask that question.

Your simple comment was dripping with 'hate and fear' of Arabs.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah WMD blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah TOP MANAGEMENT blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Why do you even entertain such emotions? blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah long before blah blah blah Limbaugh, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Cheney blah blah blah blah big dic blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah You have assumed blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "Mission Accomplished" blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah contempt for the troops blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Never rejoice due to postive news. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah the same wacko propaganda blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah so obvious to all blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah George Jr. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah When do we go after bin Laden? blah blah big dic blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "Mission Accomplished" blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Never rejoice blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah When do we go after bin Laden? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah TOP MANAGEMENT blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah wacko propaganda blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 85% of all problems are traceable to TOP MANAGEMENT blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah FREAKIN BLAH

[Ibby]

you forgot 'big dic'.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Ibram

you forgot 'big dic'.

Yeah - thanks - I got it now

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Yeah - thanks - I got it now

Of course you forgot about big dic. To have remembered it, first you must have one. Notice the difference between a technical post and one that is posted in reply to a chain of 13 insults from ValleyGirl065. How do we know it is her? Anything that does not praise ValleyGirl065 must be an insult. After all, the world revolved around ValleyGirl065.

ValleyGirl065 - why does you cunt smell so bad. That is an insult you have long deserved. Why do you not know what a big dic is. Puberty is not yet you - as demonstrated by your immediate need to see insult in all posts - you fucking scumbag.

It's not fun posting like ValleyGirl065. I wonder why she does it so often.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If you guys come to blows.... I could sure use one.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Of course you forgot about big dic. To have remembered it, first you must have one.

ValleyGirl065 - why does you cunt smell so bad. That is an insult you have long deserved. Why do you not know what a big dic is. Puberty is not yet you -as demonstrated by your immediate need to see insult in all posts - you fucking scumbag.

Originally Posted by tw

Again, Aliantha - at no time do I post anything personally insulting.

Also notice I don't post profanity only to post emotional profanity.

Nothing in my posts even implied insults. Those who take insult need to reassess themselves since inside their head is the only place that an insult exists.

Hmmm...

[yesman065]

hee hee hee - oh tw, have you not yet realized that for me to take anything you say personally I would first have to care what you think of me? Geez, and I was holding back on my posts -

[Flint]

I think I'm a reasonably bright and resourceful fellow, but for the life of me I've never been able to figure out what "big dic" means.