Thank you, America!

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

What planet did you live on th last 3 years?

I've been on this planet - the one called Earth, thank you. I know I have a very different view of things than most of you do - obviously. I think there are a lot of "sheep" in America that watch and listen to what the liberal media says and blindly follow. I am not one of them. I have views that are not unilateral with any particular party, but feel that many Americans cast votes this week to send a message to the President and although the message was received, I believe it will further complicate and compound some problems and issues not solve them.

I am not interested in getting into a pissing match with any of you here, this has started to turn very negative and personal - I am not blameless either, but I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

The above is just my opinion nothing more nothing less. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

[Hippikos]

Now. Your wish is granted and you are on my ignore list.

Nice, that saves me a lot of time.

Can easily write this as you're not reading this. Or do you?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by yesman065

I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

I don't think anyone on the Cellar has said this. In fact there are many people who have specifically said this isn't the case.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by yesman065

snip~I am not interested in getting into a pissing match with any of you here, this has started to turn very negative and personal - I am not blameless either, but I felt that someone had to offer a different point of view other than "Everythings gonna be great" now that the Dems have control of the house and Senate.

The above is just my opinion nothing more nothing less. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

You said it, so don't try to back out you candyass. Just kidding, yesman. You're absolutely 100% right.

Just because a new crew has taken over this runaway train doesn't make everything all nice nice. It's going to take a a lot of time and effort to stop this train and get it safely back to the station. Don't forget Bush is still the conductor....lord of the train.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Attention, attention please.
I know tw can be longwinded and repetitive but reread what he said about Afghanistan....please.

Then go to this safe for work link, http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/...ect-evil-2.htm and understand how we can still pull the rabbit out of the hat in Afghanistan.....and why. Time is very, very short, but we can still win.

[John Adams]

I usually stay away from the political stuff since it annoys me but here you go. As far as invading Iraq - don't you think just maybe after years of weakness it was finally decided to show that part of the world that we would stand up for ourselves and not capitulate like oh say Spain? Of course the execution left a bit to be desired. Why do I draw this conclusion? Look at the following:

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.


Now we need someone to attack so they know we are not screwing around... who to choose, who to choose....

Saddam Hussein's Defiance of United Nations Resolutions
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect2.html

And now we add more fodder (thanks to the UK):

Iraq - its infrastructure of concealment,
deception and intimidation

This report draws upon a number of sources, including intelligence material, and shows organisations whose job it is to keep Saddam and his regime in power, and to prevent the international community from disarming Iraq.how the Iraqi regime is constructed to have, and to keep, WMD, and is now engaged in a campaign of obstruction of the United Nations Weapons Inspectors.

Part One focusses on how Iraq's security organisations operate to conceal Weapons of Mass Destruction from UN Inspectors. It reveals that the inspectors are outnumbered by Iraqi intelligence by a ratio of 200 to 1.

Part Two gives up to date details of Iraq's network of intelligence and security

Part Three goes on to show the effects of the security apparatus on the ordinary people of Iraq.

While the reach of this network outside Iraq may be less apparent since the Gulf War of 1990/1991, inside Iraq, its grip is formidable over all levels of society. Saddam and his inner circle control the State infrastructure of fear.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page1470.asp


There is lots more information including reports from inspectors about meetings with reps from Bin Laden, attempted purchase of plutonium etc, they are all available with quick google searches but I think this post is long enough.

[tw]

Originally Posted by John Adams

I usually stay away from the political stuff since it annoys me but here you go. As far as invading Iraq - don't you think just maybe after years of weakness it was finally decided to show that part of the world that we would stand up for ourselves and not capitulate like oh say Spain?

Strange how you neglect events that resulted in some of those events - such as unjustified attacks by the USS New Jersey on Lebanon or bombing a baby formula factory in Sudan. Or bombing of Al Jezerra offices in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc whenever we don't like what they report. Somehow you think western nations are only sheep. Your post all but says for have no idea of Military Science 101 - also called the 'smoking gun'.

This is how 'big dics' justify their actions. Your post reeks of one sided perspective - them is evil and we are good. That one sided thought process is dangerous and even created an American defeat in Vietnam.

[Trilby]

Hippikos: You have not hit any nerve in me, ever. You are a plain and simple arrogant fuck who believes that voters in America vote with the thought of YOU in mind. Oh, it's really too, too funny.

Now. Your wish is granted and you are on my ignore list.

[Hippikos]

The above is just my opinion nothing more nothing less. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

No wucking forries, mate.

You might look into some US Congressional Investigations in which Iraq's role has been examined. Most if not all WH accusations you also mentioned have been refuted.

Re "Everythings gonna be great", won't say it'll be all nice and dandy from now on, but it's impossible to do worse after the last 6 years.

[Trilby]

I suspect Hipp won't be here too often, though.

After all, he DOES have a life outside the Cellar.

I can appreciate how embarrassing it is for him to hold such a ridiculous opinion; that we vote with him in mind. He just can't address it. Too painful.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I suspect Hipp won't be here too often, though.

After all, he DOES have a life outside the Cellar.

I can appreciate how embarrassing it is for him to hold such a ridiculous opinion; that we vote with him in mind. He just can't address it. Too painful.

I'm starting to worry about you Brianna. You talk to people who don't exist...

[yesman065]

Glatt - its not that it was specifically said, its just the attitudethat seems to dominate. I knew going into this that my opinion would be very unpopular with the majority, but I still haven't heard anything that would cause me to alter my opinion. It SEEMS to me that the democrats didn't really WIN seats, the Republicans LOST them. And there is a huge difference there. I don't see where the democratic candidates direction or ideas (clears throat) were the reason for them being elected. It was simply a backlash against the Republican party.
Unfortunately, many of the republicans that were not re-elected are paying the price and not the person people were aparrently voting "against." Thats a serious flaw.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by yesman065

It SEEMS to me that the democrats didn't really WIN seats, the Republicans LOST them. And there is a huge difference there. I don't see where the democratic candidates direction or ideas (clears throat) were the reason for them being elected. It was simply a backlash against the Republican party.
Unfortunately, many of the republicans that were not re-elected are paying the price and not the person people were aparrently voting "against." Thats a serious flaw.

I'd agree with most of your post. But your conclusion doesn't make sense. It's not a flaw at all. The majority of those who voted think the country was headed in the wrong direction. So they voted (some of) the bums out. Bush is now seriously hindered in pushing his agenda. Thats what the majority wanted out of this election, and that's what they are getting.

The Democrats aren't going to be able to do jack now that they have Capitol Hill. Bush will fight them at every turn, and all the moderate republicans lost their seats. It's just fiercely partisan Republicans, fiercely partisan Democrats, and a smattering or moderate Democrats left now. Gridlock.

To use a car analogy, this election was about putting the brakes on. The next election will be about a new direction, if any. Or maybe taking the brakes off again. We'll see.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by glatt

The Democrats aren't going to be able to do jack now that they have Capitol Hill. Bush will fight them at every turn, and all the moderate republicans lost their seats. It's just fiercely partisan Republicans, fiercely partisan Democrats, and a smattering or moderate Democrats left now. Gridlock.

Great and I'm supposed to be happy about that because. . . .? ? ? ? The big complaint after the 1st gulf war was that we pulled out too fast and didn't finish the job, now that we are trying to do that and germinate a democratic form of gov't into a part of the world that has known nothing other than dictatorships and tyranny for - like - ever, we should change directions and "put the brakes on." ?!?!? Thats where I differ I guess. The last thing we should be doing in this situation where we have deployed all these troops is to give them, the enemy and the rest of the world the impression that we are NOT going to finish what we started AGAIN. This election was a huge defeat for America not a political party per say, but the country as a whole. I couldn't give a rats ass about either party - its this amazing and wonderful country that I care about and this last election has made us look like a bunch of idiots with NO direction at all. Who would trust a gov't or a people that starts something and repeatedly changes after getting involed and finding that the work to be done is hard or messy or whatever. This is NOT an easy situation - it sucks, but it has to be done and we have to follow through with our, collective, word. Doesn't ANYONE else see that? Ugghh (not directed at anyone, just the situation as a whole)

[glatt]

Yup. The situation sucks. And the American public is fickle. They supported the Iraq war when it began, and now they don't.

But how long do you give it to win a war like this? And shouldn't you expect to see some progress? At some point, shouldn't you look at the lack of progress, and the fact that we don't control one square inch of Iraq outside of the airport base by Baghdad, and draw the conclusion that we aren't winning? At that point shouldn't you contemplate cutting our losses? The overwhelming majority of Iraqis now think that Iraq was better under Saddam than under the US. They all hate us, not just the insurgents. It's that bad there. We already lost the damn war. You can keep hanging on to save face and claim we haven't lost yet, but the reality is very grim. Is it worth 50 soldiers a month so we can claim we haven't lost yet?

The only way I see to get victory out of this war is to triple the number of troops. We should have done that in the first place. I don't see it happening . Neither party would support that.