The New "Tolerance"

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by wolf

Exactly, but that's not the same as there not being any religious expression allowed.

Allowed in what context?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

It's not deceptive at all. No two ways about it -- the antichristians want to eliminate any and all mention of God, the bible, or anything remotely related to the religion they despise from public discourse.

Could you give your definition of "public discourse"? Is it something other than "official government functions"?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Could you give your definition of "public discourse"?

Excellent point...there's a huge space between "I'm not allowed to mention my religion in public" and using public resources to promote a religion. Unfortunately that huge space includes a slippery slope...and a slope that spans a huge space is by necessity shallow and thus difficult to see.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

God owns the good guy's position on everything.

*Which* God? Jehovah? If so, then to whom or what do we attribute *my* goodness? I'm not a follower of Jehovah/Jesus/Casper the Holy Ghost.

People *choose* which way to be. The reasons for their choices are immaterial. If one wishes to attribute goodness to God or badness to Satan, great, but you own those choices, and have no right to foist them on others.

When I'm good, I'm good. When I'm bad, I'm bad, with only myself to thank or blame. Either way, I'm not telling someone else how to live as long they aren't hurting others.

And it harm none, do as ye will...do unto others as you would have them do unto you...what goes around comes around...

Do I need to go on?

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

It's not deceptive at all. No two ways about it -- the antichristians want to eliminate any and all mention of God, the bible, or anything remotely related to the religion they despise from public discourse. They're not worried that anyone is going to force religion down their throats. They want people to have to hide their Christianity unless they're within the walls of a church. Once that happens, can the persecution that you so snidely dismiss be far behind?

So you just ignore whatever anybody says and launch into a pre-packaged talking point? If I disagree with you about what my intentions are then you can call me a liar, because you're, what, a mind-reader?! Don't put words in my mouth, don't force your religion upon me if I don't want it, and don't try to re-write history, establishing your religion as a National Religion that I have to comply with. Believe whatever you want to believe and leave me alone. Period.

I know, I understand that your religion is inherently expansionist, but, sorry, if you expand into my life, then you can fuck off. I don't read your book! Leave me out of it!


I'm sorry, I can't be "nice" about this. I want to have a civil conversation, but I can't sit back and let you try to protray the agressors as the persecuted. I don't buy it.

The "good ol' boys club" is coming to an end. Deal with it.

You don't get special treatment.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Flint

The "good ol' boys club" is coming to an end. Deal with it.

Hence, their paranoia and accusations of a ban on religion(s) despite no evidence to support them. Can you blame them for being so frightened by it? The self-confirmation they've received from the state for so long might actually, someday, go away and view everyone as equals regardless of their religion. No person would feel recognized or supported more than any other based upon what or where they worship. Walking into a court room and knowing that laws, not religion, form the basis of judgement could prove an uneasy experience for those who are used to seeing people swearing on a bible or those that had the hopes of the ten commandments hanging above the judge. Paying with cash that lacks an advertisement for Christianity might feel a bit strange, too. Think that snack machine will take new, heathen money?

Yep, having to rely on faith, alone, sure would be difficult after all these years of government backing. I'd probably panic, too. But, for now, god and government still hold hands under the covers when no one is looking.

Someday, people might realize that a theocracy holds nations back instead of giving them the supposed advantage of godly recognition. You'd think world events, today, might at least drop a hint.

[warch]

But....secular humanism represents good values, too! : )

[Flint]

Originally Posted by warch

secular humanism

...like Zappa's Church of American Secular Humanism? (C.A.S.H.)

[Elspode]

I often wonder if I should have been a Christian. After all, never having to take responsbility for one's actions is a pretty cool thing, right?

"I screwed up. I'm sorry, Jesus." Bing! All better! Go to Heaven, do not pass Hell, collect a golden harp.

I'm sorry...it makes *no* sense, and has probably caused more ills than any other single cause/institution.

[mrnoodle]

I don't understand what the anger's about. There's no good old boys club. When you tell people that they can't talk about God except in the places that YOU think we should talk in, you can expect resistance. You people sound like the old Soviet guard: "This guy is religious. He's dangerous to society. We can't let his fairy tales come into contact with our pure secular way of thinking." Get a grip. Faith is part of the human condition, and atheist societies fail every time.

No one can make you pray if you don't want to. No one can set up a state religion under our constitution. But if you think that the instant someone enters government service, they must keep their faith a secret or share every secular view you do, you're nuts. No matter how many bold italics you use, you can never convince me that you're for anything less than the abolition of Christianity outside of private residences and churches.

Is that the wacko notion it appears to be? I guess you'll have to judge for yourself. But I can't come up with a single court decision or local public drama that hasn't ended with the non-Christian side winning. Kids can't have prayer groups in school. Crosses have to be removed from roadside memorials. If you share your faith, you're treading dangerously close to harassment charges -- almost like you're mentally raping someone for introducing to them the idea that there might be an ultimate truth in the universe. Religious figures are, in 99% of movies, TV shows, and other entertainment, objects of mockery. That is, unless they represent a religion other than Christianity. I'm not sure where you feel this horriby invasive religious interference is coming from.

Yet, if you look crossways at someone and they happen to be gay, you're open to lawsuits and worse. If you put a manger scene in front of your business, the ACLU will be there, trying to find a way to make you take it down.

Don't waste your breath telling me that Christianity is infringing on your rights. You're full of shit.

[mrnoodle]

Elspode, that's nothing close to what Christianity's about, any more than paganism is about worshiping Satan.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

No matter how many bold italics you use, you can never convince me that you're for anything less than the abolition of Christianity outside of private residences and churches.

Wow. So . . . you are a mind-reader?! Am I understanding this correctly?! Did you, or did you not, just say that no matter how much I try to explain my point-of-view, you will continue to totally ignore everything I say, and continue to believe that you know more about my own thoughts than I myself do?!

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Is that the wacko notion it appears to be?

You tell me, man. That's the craziest fucking thing I've ever heard.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I can't come up with a single court decision or local public drama that hasn't ended with the non-Christian side winning.

Google: "all of recorded history from the dawn of time up until now" and you might get a few pro-religious hits. So, the thing is, you don't believe in balance - you want your side to continue to be the overbearingly dominant force, and we should all just roll over and go along with that? Hey, did I mention before: fuck you! (If that's what you believe)

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Don't waste your breath telling me that Christianity is infringing on your rights.

Guess what: I never said that! What words will you put in my mouth next?

[Elspode]

You're right...it is a gross oversimplification on my part. However, last time I checked, no Jesus, no Heaven, right? And last time I checked, Christians are *required* to spread the word of Jesus so that everyone will have a chance to be saved, yes? That's why you get so many more Christians knocking on your door on Saturday morning than you do Pagans.

Accepting Jesus is often described as "giving yourself over to Jesus", or "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior". What if you don't think you really need one, because you are responsible for your own actions? What are my sins? Whatever they are, when I've identified them, I've tried to atone, on my terms, between myself and the offended party(ies).

I own my actions, my sins, my good deeds. So why am I then given this supposed "free will", when my only possible choices are to accept Jesus or reject him? According to everything I've ever read or experienced, I could be an absolute *saint* of a man my entire life, but if I didn't buy Jesus/Jehovah, I'm a lost soul.

Stacked deck, if you ask me. Doesn't really jive with field observations.

[Flint]

I love the teachings of Jesus. I live by them.
I just don't think Christianity has anything to do with them.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But if you think that the instant someone enters government service, they must keep their faith a secret or share every secular view you do, you're nuts.

Who is the last politician who kept his faith a secret?

No matter how many bold italics you use, you can never convince me that you're for anything less than the abolition of Christianity outside of private residences and churches.

So we can divide the entire world into three buckets:
A) Official government functions
B) Private residences
C) Churches

And if Christians can no longer have preferential treatment in A, they will only be able to practice in B and C?

If you put a manger scene in front of your business, the ACLU will be there, trying to find a way to make you take it down.

Your business? I doubt it. Consumers maybe (just as Christian consumers complain about "Happy Holidays"), but not the ACLU. I'm happy to be proven wrong, though.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

When you tell people that they can't talk about God except in the places that YOU think we should talk in, you can expect resistance.

I've yet to find any discussion suggesting prayer, worship, or anything related to someone's private religious practices should be limited. If you cite something, I'm sure we'd all like to discuss it.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Kids can't have prayer groups in school.

Untrue. Children can organize whatever prayer group they like. They still have a weekly prayer group at my high school that has run uninterrupted or unchallenged since I was attending. Schools sponsoring their own prayer groups, however...

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Crosses have to be removed from roadside memorials.

Because leaving items alongside the road on federal property is consider littering and some of them are growing large enough to become a danger to drivers if they hit them...? Who knew that constructing something alongside the road without permission might be illegal?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

If you share your faith, you're treading dangerously close to harassment charges -- almost like you're mentally raping someone for introducing to them the idea that there might be an ultimate truth in the universe.

Nonsense. Stop being afraid. There are no laws against verbal discussion unless you threaten someone with physical violence, nor have there been any court cases that ruled against anyone other than the government for "pushing" a religion on someone.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Religious figures are, in 99% of movies, TV shows, and other entertainment, objects of mockery. That is, unless they represent a religion other than Christianity.

There might be a reason for that.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Yet, if you look crossways at someone and they happen to be gay, you're open to lawsuits and worse. If you put a manger scene in front of your business, the ACLU will be there, trying to find a way to make you take it down.

Find the articles. Show us. I've never heard of anyone being asking to remove a religious display from their private property unless it was in violation of an HOA agreement they ackowledged when they moved into the neighborhood.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Don't waste your breath telling me that Christianity is infringing on your rights. You're full of shit.

Good to see you're right on something.

Originally Posted by Elspode

However, last time I checked, no Jesus, no Heaven, right?

Aw, crap! I thought it was "know Jesus, know heaven"!