Will the Second Amendment survive? - Page 5

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 04:52 PM

It's a very simple question: when all the constitencuy thingeys and the Amendments were written THEN at that time wasn't the militia and the right to bear arms written to birth the Armed Forces as it is it known today. My point is that the civilian element,no matter how much firepower it has, is unregulated and in no way attached to the overall plan of homeland defense as it stands today. I like that Alan Aarkin film "The Russians are coming"

Radar · 12-06-2007, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Are you pissed off because your claim was false Radar (and any idiot knows it is without even bothering to look up fuckinggoogle.com), or are you pissed off because you can't find anything substantial to back up your false statement?

You and UG are both on the same slippery slide here. That's patently obvious.

Why would I be angry? Each and every single thing I've said is factual and true. I already know what I've said is a fact. If you are too lazy to look it up on google, don't get upset with me. The UK, Australia, and Canada have more violent crimes (rapes, assaults, etc.) than America on a per-capita basis. Many of those crimes aren't reported in those countries because the Ministry doesn't allow more than a certain number of reports to be made.

The only difference between America and those countries, is over there people use bats, knives, etc. rather than guns.

Urbane Guerrilla · 12-08-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You and UG are both on the same slippery slide here. That's patently obvious.

Though Radar and I fight like wombats ("Ow! Quit it!" "Take that!" "Oh shut up and bite!" "But then I can't add insult to injury!"), we are freedom people. We are not necessarily convinced the non-gun or the anti-gun are. There is the matter of the mindset Lookout123 mentioned. Meanwhile, arms and their skill are measurable. Votes, to be sure, are far more pleasant -- but tyranny is far more unpleasant.

Well -- more to follow soon.

regular.joe · 12-06-2007, 12:17 PM

On the contrary, you do need to go to Iraq to really know what is going on. To different Areas as well, as a broad example Diyala is different then Anbar. Both are different then Baghdad.

The only weapons that are confiscated in Iraq are the RPK heavy machine guns, RPG launchers with or without warheads, and like items. Oh yea, large ordinance like 155 Artilary rounds, Det cord and bomb/IED making materials. The Ak-47's that are confiscated are the ones that are hot to the touch, having been recently fired at U.S. or Iraqi troops or police.

Every household in Iraq is allowed to have one AK-47. It's Iraqi law.
It is unlawful for an Iraqi citizen to posses an RPG launcher, much as it is unlawful for an American citizen to posses an AT-4 rocket launcher.
U.S. troops support Iraqi law.

So, you would advocate all military personnel to refuse service or deployment to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, The Pacific Rim, Europe, and South America? Under the grounds that they have received unlawful orders to do so?

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

On the contrary, you do need to go to Iraq to really know what is going on. To different Areas as well, as a broad example Diyala is different then Anbar. Both are different then Baghdad.

The only weapons that are confiscated in Iraq are the RPK heavy machine guns, RPG launchers with or without warheads, and like items. Oh yea, large ordinance like 155 Artilary rounds, Det cord and bomb/IED making materials. The Ak-47's that are confiscated are the ones that are hot to the touch, having been recently fired at U.S. or Iraqi troops or police.

Every household in Iraq is allowed to have one AK-47. It's Iraqi law.
It is unlawful for an Iraqi citizen to posses an RPG launcher, much as it is unlawful for an American citizen to posses an AT-4 rocket launcher.
U.S. troops support Iraqi law.

So, you would advocate all military personnel to refuse service or deployment to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, The Pacific Rim, Europe, and South America? Under the grounds that they have received unlawful orders to do so?

No, you don't have to be in Iraq to know what's going on. We're inundated with information daily about what's going on. Also, when America invaded Iraq without legitimate cause or provocation and started kicking down doors and taking not only guns (hand guns, AK-47s, rocket propelled grendades, etc.) it was still early in this unconstitutional war. America also shut down the Iraqi free press.

And yes, I'd defend the right of any person to refuse to follow unlawful orders to take part in any military action in another country that didn't follow a formal declaration of war. The U.S. military has one and only one purpose...to defend the land and ships of the United States from attack. It's not here to overthrow dictators, prevent other nations from developing nukes, train the military of other nations, to take part in peacekeeping or humanitarian aid missions, to enforce UN sanctions or resolutions, etc.

regular.joe · 12-06-2007, 03:43 PM

The U.S. military has one and only one purpose...to defend the land and ships of the United States from attack. It's not here to overthrow dictators, prevent other nations from developing nukes, train the military of other nations, to take part in peacekeeping or humanitarian aid missions, to enforce UN sanctions or resolutions, etc.[/quote]

Taken from Field Manual 1 "The Army". Published by Headquarters Department of the Army in June of 2005

1-2. The Army, a long-trusted institution, exists to serve the Nation. As part of the joint force, the Army supports and defends America’s Constitution and way of life against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Army protects national security interests, including, forces, possessions, citizens, allies, and friends. It prepares for and delivers
decisive action in all operations. Above all, the Army provides combatant commanders with versatile land forces ready to fight and win the Nation’s wars.

1-8. Army forces are versatile. In addition to conducting combat operations, Army forces help provide security. They supply many services associated with establishing order, rebuilding infrastructure, and delivering humanitarian support. When necessary, they can direct assistance in reestablishing governmental institutions. Army forces
help set the conditions that allow a return to normalcy or a self-sustaining peace.

Sundae · 12-06-2007, 12:19 PM

Also the article on Britain's crime figures is from 1998 and was from a US Department of Justice report which suggested the UK was in some ways a more dangerous place to live than America.

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Also the article on Britain's crime figures is from 1998 and was from a US Department of Justice report which suggested the UK was in some ways a more dangerous place to live than America.

Hey SD when I grew up in England guns were so rare I had to read comics to see them but today in the U.K they are common. Whatever happend to boys comics? What does your Welsh signature mean?

Beevee · 12-06-2007, 01:01 PM

Double post.

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 01:20 PM

When I grew up in England guns were rare, especially in crime: see ford transits and sawn-off shotguns, but I'm sorry a lot of teenagers have been killed by firearms in the U.K. recently, also by ever present stabbings.

Sundae · 12-06-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icileparadise

Hey SD when I grew up in England guns were so rare I had to read comics to see them but today in the U.K they are common.

I'm with BeeVee on this. The only real guns I have ever seen have been on police at the airport. I may have seen armed police elsewhere and just haven't noticed, but I have never seen a civilian with a gun or heard a gunshot.

Quote:

What does your Welsh signature mean?

It's a bit cheeky. Welsh posters on another site tend to have their sigs in Welsh and I think it's a little insular. Mine is "I thank God I'm not Welsh" (as opposed to the Catatonia song which translates as "Every day, when I wake up, I thank the Lord I'm Welsh"). I love Wales and have nothing against the Welsh personally, just playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beevee

I was however fearful of being mugged after dark and never ventured out at night.

I suppose it depends where you live. I have never been mugged but HM has been mugged twice - once very seriously, involving stitches and broken bones. Then again he was very drunk and was trying to befriend a heroin addict - a situation I don't plan to get into.

Beevee · 12-06-2007, 01:11 PM

Where do you get your information that guns in the U.K. are common?

I'm an ex-brit. I lived in London and on the outskirts for 62 years. I have, truthfully, never seen a real gun other than in a museum, in my life and I never walked in fear of one. I was however fearful of being mugged after dark and never ventured out at night.

I accept there is a high crime rate in the U.K. What I don't accept is that the use of guns is anything more than a minimum inside of those figures.

icileparadise · 12-06-2007, 01:49 PM

But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

Radar · 12-06-2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icileparadise

But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

The right to bear arms has always been and will always be an INDIVIDUAL right that has nothing to do with the military.

jinx · 12-06-2007, 01:52 PM

It's doesn't say "present army" anywhere, it says "the people".

12-06-2007, 12:17 PM	#4
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	On the contrary, you do need to go to Iraq to really know what is going on. To different Areas as well, as a broad example Diyala is different then Anbar. Both are different then Baghdad. The only weapons that are confiscated in Iraq are the RPK heavy machine guns, RPG launchers with or without warheads, and like items. Oh yea, large ordinance like 155 Artilary rounds, Det cord and bomb/IED making materials. The Ak-47's that are confiscated are the ones that are hot to the touch, having been recently fired at U.S. or Iraqi troops or police. Every household in Iraq is allowed to have one AK-47. It's Iraqi law. It is unlawful for an Iraqi citizen to posses an RPG launcher, much as it is unlawful for an American citizen to posses an AT-4 rocket launcher. U.S. troops support Iraqi law. So, you would advocate all military personnel to refuse service or deployment to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, The Pacific Rim, Europe, and South America? Under the grounds that they have received unlawful orders to do so? __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

12-06-2007, 03:43 PM	#6
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	The U.S. military has one and only one purpose...to defend the land and ships of the United States from attack. It's not here to overthrow dictators, prevent other nations from developing nukes, train the military of other nations, to take part in peacekeeping or humanitarian aid missions, to enforce UN sanctions or resolutions, etc.[/quote] Taken from Field Manual 1 "The Army". Published by Headquarters Department of the Army in June of 2005 1-2. The Army, a long-trusted institution, exists to serve the Nation. As part of the joint force, the Army supports and defends America’s Constitution and way of life against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Army protects national security interests, including, forces, possessions, citizens, allies, and friends. It prepares for and delivers decisive action in all operations. Above all, the Army provides combatant commanders with versatile land forces ready to fight and win the Nation’s wars. 1-8. Army forces are versatile. In addition to conducting combat operations, Army forces help provide security. They supply many services associated with establishing order, rebuilding infrastructure, and delivering humanitarian support. When necessary, they can direct assistance in reestablishing governmental institutions. Army forces help set the conditions that allow a return to normalcy or a self-sustaining peace. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

12-06-2007, 12:19 PM	#7
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	Also the article on Britain's crime figures is from 1998 and was from a US Department of Justice report which suggested the UK was in some ways a more dangerous place to live than America. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

12-06-2007, 01:01 PM	#9
Beevee Eavesdropper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 24	Double post. Last edited by Beevee; 12-06-2007 at 01:13 PM.

12-06-2007, 01:52 PM	#15
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	It's doesn't say "present army" anywhere, it says "the people". __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

12-06-2007, 04:52 PM	#1
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	It's a very simple question: when all the constitencuy thingeys and the Amendments were written THEN at that time wasn't the militia and the right to bear arms written to birth the Armed Forces as it is it known today. My point is that the civilian element,no matter how much firepower it has, is unregulated and in no way attached to the overall plan of homeland defense as it stands today. I like that Alan Aarkin film "The Russians are coming"

12-06-2007, 01:20 PM	#10
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	When I grew up in England guns were rare, especially in crime: see ford transits and sawn-off shotguns, but I'm sorry a lot of teenagers have been killed by firearms in the U.K. recently, also by ever present stabbings.

12-06-2007, 01:11 PM	#12
Beevee Eavesdropper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 24	Where do you get your information that guns in the U.K. are common? I'm an ex-brit. I lived in London and on the outskirts for 62 years. I have, truthfully, never seen a real gun other than in a museum, in my life and I never walked in fear of one. I was however fearful of being mugged after dark and never ventured out at night. I accept there is a high crime rate in the U.K. What I don't accept is that the use of guns is anything more than a minimum inside of those figures.

12-06-2007, 01:49 PM	#13
icileparadise Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Swiss Mountains Posts: 96	But where are the Americans out there - the 2nd amendt. was for their present army to bear arms to fight. Translated it means the Armed Forces. The present day Army not householders, civilian Joes like you and me but the Army. Sorry for getting hectic but that's my question. Who wants?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)