Those Bad Ol' Iraqis?

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

tw, you are quite correct about fearing Pakistan, but I do not think you should dismiss Iran. You can also add Syria for that matter, though its influence is mainly in Lebanon and Palestine, and to a lesser extent, Iraq. There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will have to get out (of Iraq). What worries me, is: 1, the method of our withdrawal, and 2, what sort of mess will be left behind.

If falling for myths and lies from George Jr, then Syria and Iran are major threats. They weren't until George Jr decided to make them enemies. For example, what American ally was providing intelligence to the US? Syria. So when did Syria become this big menace? When George Jr decided to terminate the relationship by hyping 'black and white', 'good and evil', 'god told me what to do' rhetoric.

Iran was a cooperative nation while slowly doing as Libya was to become a closer friend of America. This infuriated the Project for a New American Century whose viewpoints are based in political agendas rather than in reality. Iran could not have been more cooperative after 11 September and the Afghan invasion. Did you know that or did you instead only hear lies from the George Jr administration? Do you know why Iran was so cooperative? Reasons could not have been more obvious.

Well Syria and Iran are a problem only because of a mental midget (actually Cheney) who sees evil everywhere - cannot view the world in perspectives. The Iranian reform movement? All but killed by George Jr's declaration of war - the axis of evil speech. But again, if you did not recognized that on the minute he gave that speech, then you did not yet grasp the world.

Neither Syria nor Iran is a threat any greater than the K'stan nations. Turkey is also a threat on the same scale because of Turkey's attitude towards Kurdistan and because America's second or third closest ally in NATO has become so anti-American thanks to the mental midget and his 'big dics'. Let's not forget Israel who will invade a nation at the 'drop of a hat' using the same logic that justified "Mission Accomplished". Israel is also a threat as serious as Syria and Iran.

By far, the most dangerous situation is Pakistan. Far more dangerous than any other nation in the region and maybe the most dangerous in the entire world. But again, it demands that one first discount all those George Jr myth and lies. That is not easy in an America that, for example, remains completely ignorant of a massive American military buildup apparently to attack someone next month. Why does the world know of this buildup when Americans do not? Why are my sources about this other 'surge' only from foreign sources - not from American sources? It demonstrates how easily the Americans are also fooled by myths about Syria and Iran.

Last year at this time, many Americans also foolishly believed N Korea was a threat. Again lies and myths from George Jr's administration. Notice that suddenly N Korea is now getting what it always wanted. Did you know what they were asking for? A return to the same agreement that Jimmy Carter negotiated back in mid 1990s. Did you notice this administration that destroyed that agreement is now suddenly restoring it? Why? Because the only thing that changed - George Jr's people finally saw some reality rather than know using wacko extremist 'big dic' thinking. China or South Korea may have finally brought sanity back to George Jr's administration. It certainly was not Cheney. And it certainly was not the lightweight Condi Rice.

Fears of Syria and Iran are just as unfounded once we remove George Jr propaganda. Yes, both are unacceptable to American principles. But then so are most nations in Africa that America is so supportive of. Need I name Nigeria? Why are we also not threatening Sudan that is far worse? Well again, what they won't tell you. We do back room deals with Sudan for information. Therefore Sudan really does not massacre anyone of consequence. Did you see the Sudan leaders laughing at the opening ceremonies for the UN when George Jr gave his speech denouncing Sudan? Do you know why they were laughing? If not, it also explains why they have you foolishly believing the myths about Iran and Syria.

I suspect almost everyone here has no idea how serious Pakistan really is. But again, how many still believe anything from the George Jr administration that routinely downplays that threat. It goes to what you use as news sources. I guarantee that anyone who defined Fox News as a news source has zero idea about anything above.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will have to get out (of Iraq). What worries me, is: 1, the method of our withdrawal, and 2, what sort of mess will be left behind. I know that we can take the stand of who cares, it's not our country, but we took it upon ourselves to invade both countries, so whether we agreed or disagreed with the original actions of our governments, we as people, have a moral obligation to the Iraqis and Afghanis.

Deal with realities. The Iraqis must now make decisions. Only Iraqis can decide to expand the civil war or suddenly decide they need one another. Biggest reason that Sunnis and Shia are ethnic cleansing each other - we created the problem and our presence only exasperated it. From the Iraq Study Group:

34: The question of the future U.S. force presence must be on the table for discussion as the national reconciliation dialogue takes place. Its inclusion will increase the likelihood of participation by insurgents and militia leaders, and thereby increase the possibilities for success.

Even after the United States has moved all combat brigades out of Iraq, we would maintain a considerable military presence in the region

Further, adding more American troops could conceivably worsen those aspects of the security problem that are fed by the view that the U.S. presence is intended to be a long-term “occupation.”

That means assisting from a distance - American troops out of the city - and with the US as part of a large neutral nation presence. That means nation building - exactly what the Project for New American Century condemns and yet exactly what is well known as necessary where intelligent people reside.

That large American embassy demolished when we don't intend to occupy Iraq - make it a territory like Guam. Don't fool yourself. That embassy is that large because we intend to micromanage Iraq - just like Nam.

Iraq still needs American presence to protect its national integrity from invasion; ie from Turkey. But if Iraqis want civil war, then the massive more deaths are necessary. Any government imposed on the people either fails or is a dictatorship. If they have to fight in the streets like in Lebanon, then Americans must step back; let it happen, and acknowledge all that blood is on American hands. These conclusions cannot be changed by America. Time to avoid this was in 2002. A lesson from Israel in Lebanon. No way around what we have created and cannot change.

Iraq cannot be won. The question is how great will that loss be. By end of 2007, if the question is not decided, then America must leave - let them murder each other like American also lets it happen in Darfur, Chad, Somolia, and other places.

Meanwhile, every day we stay in Iraq is another day we are losing a justified war in Afghanistan. Afghanistan needs hundreds of thousands in country this year. Our backs are against the wall. The defeat that may occur in the next decade apparently is being decided this year. And because so many want to fix what cannot be fixed by Americans in Iraq, then Afghanistan may also go down as an American defeat.

We are in a desperate situation in Afghanistan for the same reasons why 1968 sealed the American defeat in Nam. Do you see the parallels between 1968 Nam and Afghanistan today? They are stunningly same.

[TheMercenary]

I say we pull out to desert bases and let them have at each other. A total genocide would occur. But let's at least wait for a Democratic President to be elected first. That way we can blame any fall out on a Democratically controlled congress and a Democratic President.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I say we pull out to desert bases and let them have at each other.

Total genocide will be inevitable if we stay. That was well understood and defined in the Iraq Study Group; which recommended that pullback.

We created the massacre. We cannot stop it. Either they must conduct a massive genocide in civil war or they must come to reality - which means blaming it on and throw out their 'big dics'. No way around this solution. A situation well predicted in both the Pentagon and State Department back in 2002 when Americans were instead foolishly listening to Rush Limbaugh logic.

Work one does today does not show up on a spread sheet for 4 or more years later. Genocide that was obvious to the educated in 2002 will appear on body counts today. Americans can only make things worse; not make things better. We broke it and we own it as only the educated were saying in 2002. Did you hear them or did you join the ranks of American 'big dics'? The resulting genocide is no accident. Our only option is to minimize it - and that means pulling back out of the cities - letting the Iraqis decide what they want - just like in Lebanon when Israel created the same mess by listening to their 'big dic'. Lessons of history repeat when ....

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

We broke it and we own it as only the educated were saying in 2002. Did you hear them or did you join the ranks of American 'big dics'?

I said the very thing in 02. And did I hear them, what the fuck does that mean? I was on active duty in the Army then. And you? What the hell were you doing about it in 2002??

[piercehawkeye45]

It wouldn't be hard to believe that Iran hates America. Look at the history of America's intervention with Iran's politics. I would be pissed at the US if I were them too.

[JayMcGee]

Of course Iran hates America..... and so do the majority of Middle east states.

Why?

Israel.

The Middle East problem will not be solved until the US re-evauates its policy via-a-vis Israel.

[tw]

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

Of course Iran hates America..... and so do the majority of Middle east states.

Why?

For those who can’t/won't read the various sources, well, 'hate of America' appears stronger in Islamic countries that are supposed to be American friends. Iranian ‘dislike of America’ is same or slightly less. ‘America dislike’ is strongest in Pakistan – supposedly a strongest American ally.

From the Harvard International Review comes numbers and supporting facts (paragraphs beginning with boldface letter is most relevant):

It's the Policy, Stupid
Political Islam and US Foreign Policy
Is the primary cause of radicalism and anti-Westernism, especially anti-Americanism, extremist theology or simply the policies of many Muslim and Western governments?

A new Gallup World Study overwhelmingly suggests the latter. The poll, whose results are released for the first time in this article, now enables us to get beyond conflicting analyses of experts and selective voices from the "Arab street." It lets us listen to one billion Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia. And they tell us that US policies, not values, are behind the ire of the Arab/Muslim world. ...

History demonstrates that political Islam is both extremist and mainstream. ...

Is there a blind hatred of the United States? The question "Why do they hate us?" raised in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 looms large following continued terrorist attacks and the dramatic growth of anti-Americanism. A common answer provided by some politicians and experts has been, "They hate our way of life, our freedom, democracy, and success." Considering the broad based anti-Americanism, not only among extremists but also among a significant mainstream majority in the Muslim world (and indeed in many other parts of the world), this answer is not satisfactory. Although the Muslim world expresses many common grievances, do extremists and moderates differ in attitudes about the West?

Focusing on the attitudes of those with radical views and comparing them with the moderate majority results in surprising findings. When asked what they admired most about the West, both extremists and moderates had the identical top three spontaneous responses: (1) technology; (2) the West's value system, hard work, self-responsibility, rule of law, and cooperation; and (3) its fair political systems, democracy, respect for human rights, freedom of speech, and gender equality. A significantly higher percent of potential extremists than moderates (50 percent versus 35 percent) believe that "moving towards greater governmental democracy" will foster progress in the Arab/Muslim world. Potential extremists believe even more strongly than moderates (58 percent versus 45 percent) that Arab/Muslim nations are eager to have better relations with the West. Finally, no significant difference exists between the percentage of potential extremists and moderates who said "better relations with the West concerns me a lot."

While many believe anti-Americanism is tied to a basic hatred of the West and deep West-East religious and cultural differences, the data above contradicts these views. In addition, Muslim assessments of individual Western countries demonstrate that Muslim views do not paint all Western countries with the same brush. Unfavorable opinions of the United States or the United Kingdom do not preclude favorable attitudes towards other Western countries like France or Germany. Data shows that while moderates have very unfavorable opinions of the United States (42 percent) and Great Britain (34 percent), unfavorable opinions of France (15 percent) and Germany (13 percent) were far less and in fact comparable to the percent of Muslims who viewed Pakistan or Turkey unfavorably (both at 12 percent).

What creates unfavorable attitudes towards the United States? Belief that the United States is serious about democracy in Muslim countries has long been undermined by what is perceived as the United States' "double standard" in promoting democracy. Key factors of this perception include a long track record of supporting authoritarian regimes in the Arab and Muslim world while not promoting democracy there as it did elsewhere after the fall of the Soviet Union. Then, when weapons of mass destruction were not to be found in Iraq, the Bush administration boldly declared that the US-led invasion and the toppling of Saddam Hussein were intended to bring democracy to Iraq as part of a broader policy of promoting democracy in the Middle East. ...

While the spread of democracy has been the stated goal of the United States, majorities in every nation surveyed by Gallup do not believe that the United States was serious about the establishment of democratic systems in the region. For example, only 24 percent in Egypt and Jordan and only 16 percent in Turkey agreed that the United States was serious about establishing democratic systems. ...

Apparent is a trend where Islamic people don't believe Americans. Can anyone blame them? United States has lied because George Jr and his administration even lied about international kidnapping and torture, etc.

Muslim perceptions of the US role and response to the Israeli wars in Gaza and Lebanon must also be seen within the broad context of the Arab and Muslim world. From North Africa to Southeast Asia, the Gallup World Poll indicates that majorities in every predominantly Muslim country surveyed associate "ruthless" with the United States (68 percent in Turkey, 85 percent in Morocco). Muslim publics are also much less likely to say the US is "trustworthy" when compared to other Western nations. For example, only 4 percent of Egyptians consider the US "trustworthy," while 22 percent associate this description with France and Japan, and 18 percent with Germany. Outside of Iraq, majorities also agreed that the invasion of Iraq has done more harm than good (ranging from 52 percent in Iran to 91 percent in Egypt).

In reviewing this poll and others, a common thread appears. ‘America unfavorable’ numbers are higher in countries with freer press and that are considered American friends such as Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan. Some of the most unfavorable numbers are found in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. Unfavorable numbers trend less anti-American in Iran and Morocco. As noted farther below, Iran is one of the few countries where 'America unfavorable' ratings softened - they less hate America.

America's unconditional support of Israel cast it in the eyes of many as a partner, not simply in military action against HAMAS or Hizbollah militants, but in a war against the democratically elected Palestinian government in Gaza and the government of Lebanon, a long-time US ally. The primary victims in Gaza and Lebanon were hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, not terrorists. In Lebanon, more than 500 were killed, 2,000 wounded, and 800,000 displaced. Israeli’s military destroyed the civilian infrastructures of both Gaza and Lebanon. International organizations like the United Nations, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch have criticized Israel for violating international law.

So how unfavorable is Islamic opinion of the US. Getting worse. Numbers from Gallup Polls in 2001/2 and again in 2005/6: this time from The Economist of 10 Mar 2007:

What the data show is not reassuring to Americans: in most places, the percentage holding "unfavourable views" of the United States has risen - from 64% to 79% in Saudi Arabia, 33% to 62% in Turkey, 41% to 49% in Morocco. (Exceptions do exist: in Iran the figure fell from 63% to 52%)

Why do Americans think Islam has so poor opinions of American? From a Gallup poll of Mar 2002:

Q. Do you think that the unfavorable views Muslims have of the U.S. are based mostly on:
A. What the U.S. has done (or are): 11%
B. Misinformation provided by their media and government about U.S.: 78%

In later polls, that 'misinformed belief' almost disappears. Curious, they are not so misinformed after all? That is what American opinions now say. Why increasing unfavorable American ratings all over the Islamic world? And are Americans finally learning the meaning of, "We have met the enemy and he is us"? [deja vue Nam].

Meanwhile American unfavorable opinion of Islam has increased from 39% after 11 September to 46% in a Mar 2006 Washington Post/ABC News poll.

A trend from the numbers. Iran is not the ‘American hater’ as some Americans so strongly believe. From polls, that ‘strongly unfavorable’ rating is higher in Pakistan, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia - supposedly American's closest friends. Sometimes those ‘unfavorable to favorable’ numbers are two to one and four to one – landslide opinions. Government ‘support of America’ is not shared by their people. ‘American unfavorable’ ratings tend to be equal or slightly higher among America's closest allies as compared to Iran.


Meanwhile, what religion has a higher unfavorable rating in America? Scientology is massively ‘less popular’ to Americans as compared to any other religion; including Islam. Americans only give Scientology (in one poll) an 8% approval rating. Americans are 3 times more favorable among Islamic Pakistanis and Iranians than Scientology is among Americans.

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by tw

A trend from the numbers. Iran is not the ‘American hater’ as some Americans so strongly believe. From polls, that ‘strongly unfavorable’ rating is higher in Pakistan, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia - supposedly American's closest friends. Sometimes those ‘unfavorable to favorable’ numbers are two to one and four to one – landslide opinions. Government ‘support of America’ is not shared by their people. ‘American unfavorable’ ratings tend to be equal or slightly higher among America's closest allies as compared to Iran.

tw, as usual you are fixated on one subject (and I *do not* mean this is a nasty way). What difference do numbers in opinion polls really make? For a start, opinion polls, wherever they are conducted, are unreliable. People will answer one way on a given day, and the reverse on another. Do you really think that Giuliani really has a chance of being the Republican candidate in 2008? He is topping the polls at the moment, but who thinks he will actually get up, let alone win the Presidency? I like the guy, but he has no hope. The polls you cite are similar. The Saudi people hate their government (close to a dictatorship), so they will hate anyone who they see as assisting that government to stay in power (eg. the US). Jordan has a large population of Palestinians. That explains their opinions.

As I mentioned earlier, over 700,000 Iranians died in the US supported Iraq/Iran war. The Iranian people have long memories.

Yes, the average Pakistani "on the street" is going to say he/she hates America, but they have been brainwashed. The big worry for the West is if Musharraf is deposed or assassinated, and Shiite extremists take control, terrorism will spread through the Middle East and the West, like a wild fire. If the US can protect Musharraf for a long enough period, then maybe, just maybe, the bulk of the Pakistani people will realise that the US and the West are not the ogres they think we are. Musharraf is walking a thin line between power (and life), and death. What would you have the US do - invade Pakistan and have all the doubters suddenly convinced that indeed the US *is* evil? I hope not.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I vote Pakistan for the most dangerous, next to us. Nukes, missiles, wackos that could seize power in the immediate future. Hate India and Israel, both of which are getting a considerable influx of US help. My guess they subscribe to, My enemy's friend is my enemy.

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I vote Pakistan for the most dangerous, next to us. Nukes, missiles, wackos that could seize power in the immediate future. Hate India and Israel, both of which are getting a considerable influx of US help. My guess they subscribe to, My enemy's friend is my enemy.

I think you are right on Bruce, if Musharraf is kicked out. At the moment he is exercising at least some degree of control over the country (not much, I know, but as I said before, the situation in Pakistan could be even worse than it is).

There is some disagreement, by the way, on exactly how good Pakistan's nuclear weapons really are, but you are right, Israel will cop it if the "crazies" take control of Pakistan.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

tw, as usual you are fixated on one subject (and I *do not* mean this is a nasty way). What difference do numbers in opinion polls really make? For a start, opinion polls, wherever they are conducted, are unreliable. People will answer one way on a given day, and the reverse on another. Do you really think that Giuliani really has a chance of being the Republican candidate in 2008? He is topping the polls at the moment, but who thinks he will actually get up, let alone win the Presidency?
...
As I mentioned earlier, over 700,000 Iranians died in the US supported Iraq/Iran war. The Iranian people have long memories.

Yes, the average Pakistani "on the street" is going to say he/she hates America, but they have been brainwashed.

If the average Pakistani is brainwashed, then he is brainwashed with diatribes from his dictatorship government. Why then is Pakistani opinion contrary to what his government says?

Brainwashed or not is completely irrelevant. Relevant: that is their opinion. An opinion repeatedly demonstrated in poll after poll from many sources. An attitude so massively unfavorable of America that approval numbers repeated are in an extremely one-sided 25% region. A massive unfavorable rating common to nations that are not secular.

How can one declare so many polls from so many different sources as all wrong? The trend is obvious. Contrary to what their government says, secular nations tend to have more favorable American numbers; fundamental religious extremists tend to be unfavorable.

Same applies to poll numbers from Iranians and interviews by international reporters. Iranians are a more secular people. Polls put Iranians with numbers equal to or more favorable than so many American ally nations. As Jay notes:

Of course Iran hates America..... and so do the majority of Middle east states

Do Iranians hate Americans because of Saddam's attack on Iran? Of course not. They most certainly remember how America supported the hated Shah again and again. The Shah even did torture. But trivial support given to Saddam and Iraq does not inspire hate of America. America's support of the hated Shah is something that America should apologize for - part of the process of political exchanges that would restore Iranian-American relationships.

Of so many reasons why Pakistan is such a threat - Pakistanis (unlike Iranians) are fundamentalist religious. Even during America's justified attack on Afghanistan or during "Mission Accomplished", Iran was so cooperative with Americans. Pakistan had to be dragged into cooperation. Pakistani military is even suspected of spying for bin Laden. Why then does Iran nearly 100% hate Americans? Hate is only found in George Jr / Rush Limbaugh / neo-con and wacko extremist propaganda. Facts and supporting numbers just don't support your contention that Iranians so hate Americans. Did Iranians provide the Taliban with intelligence? Absolutely not.

Have I digressed about 'fancy trim work'? No. I go right for at structure - fundamental and underlying facts. To understand why Americans see Iranian threats where none exist, well, in your own example, America made enemies of a closest American friend - Vietnam - for exact same reasons. Why do I concentrate on this 'so essential' point? Learn the lessons of history or be condemned to repeat the deaths of millions. Same 'girders' explain why America wasted so many in Vietnam AND why same could happen in Iran. Essential to avoiding war is to defang wacko extremists who want to fix the world by "Pearl Harboring" Iran. They are the source of Iranian hate.

Why is Iran - that was working towards improved relations with America despite opposition from fundamentalist clerics - why is Iran suddenly so much an enemy? Not because of Iranian hatred. Nothing was as destructive as when George Jr announced his intent to "Pearl Harbor" Iran in Jan 2002. Even moderate Khatami whose supporter were women and young Iranians and his predecessor Rafsanjani who had been working for better US relations - both had to concede to the clerics due to George Jr. If George Jr had not made his 'all but declaration of war' speech, Iranian relations could have improved as the majority of Iranians once wanted. Even Rafsanjani had to backtrack; join clerics in anti-American rhetoric.

Anyone who views Iran as monolithic could never appreciate a power struggle between Iranian presidents (who so wanted to improve their American relations) and clerics (who like so many Pakistanis, instead, distrust Americans). That is what George Jr and Rush Limbaugh thrive on - public naivety. Iran could have been somewhere behind Libya in restoration of American relations. They could even forgive Americans for imposing the Shah on them. Iranians are not a country of religious extremists like Pakistan. Iran is a secular nation that has often made gestures to improve their American relationships only to be rebuffed by our wacko extremist government.

Why do I not let this go? Because neo-con myth purveyors could create war on another potential friend. This myth that Iranians are a nation of maybe 40 million suicide bombers is absolute nonsense. To not see through those neo-co myths would be deja vue Vietnam - and millions more dead. Do we instead relive lesson of history?

Fundamental to avoiding such conflicts is to ignore 'fancy trim work'; instead go after fundamental facts ruthlessly and incessently. Iranian attitude is essential - the 'girders' - to understanding that region. To not do so - to not see why 'Iranian hate' myths are promoted - is why wars are created. Had America been intelligent and not declared a "Pearl Harbor" intent for wacko neo-con political reasons, then Iran would not be this threat that some 'feel'. Deja vue Vietnam when McCarthyism did then what 'Project for a New American Century' does today.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

If the average Pakistani is brainwashed, then he is brainwashed with diatribes from his dictatorship government. Why then is Pakistani opinion contrary to what his government says?

~ snip I highly doubt the poll takers go anywhere near the western provinces, controlled by the taliban, where westerners are forbidden and government representatives walk on eggs.
Or in the poppy fields.

Polls must be taken with a grain of salt until the actual methodology, both theory and actually used, is known.

[piercehawkeye45]

The main reason I was talking about was Operation Ajax and the reinstatement of the Shah. This directly led to the Islamic revolution and the kidnapping of the US embassy. Then the US supports Saddam in the Iraqi-Iranian war. Then includes them in the "Axis Of Evil" and denies and help from them. And now we are misquoting their leaders and accusing Iran of terrorism.

[Aliantha]

Geez...and was me thinking I hate America the most and all the while there's others?

btw that was a joke.