Murderous Terrorists Kill Brits

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The people who opposed British rule were given a place at the table. The reason we all thought this had settled down as an issue was because the same people who were setting off bombs in Manchester and London in the 80s and 90s were sitting at the table discussing peace when the takls eventually got under way. McGuinnes, who has termed the attacks treasonous, was himself a leading figure in the Troubles.

It's all very well saying we should listen and understand what people want. I agree. I have always been of that opinion. But when the war is done and everyone is sick of blood and bombs, when both sides have set aside violence and opted for negotiation; when the negotiations have led on through sleepless nights and tense months, and everyone has given up something and everyone has gained concessions; when the swell of the people are supporting peace and fighters on both sides have become statesmen...

When all that's done and the first tentative steps to peace have begun to steady into a good pace, when the goal is in sight and everyone is breathing a little easier, the fact that a handful of people who can't quite give up the fight, who value absolute and total victory too highly to compromise and who will see their country burn before they'll give up one inch of their dream, have chosen to dig in their heels and fight both sides, shouldn't be enough to crush the peace.

The Provisional IRA, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with their tactics (or even their goals), fought for and with the support of the majority of the Catholic Irish community. (I believe that is the case, though I'd be willing to stand correction if anyone knows more about this). If you accept the logic of the Catholic Irish being the indigenous population and the protestant Irish being the descendants of the invader British/supporters of British rule, then there were two armies in operation: a British army and an Irish army (IRA). The IRA effectively became a parrallel judicial system in a country where the official system was seen (and in effect was) as a mechanism of external control over a subject population. Harsh, yes and brutal. Unfair and arbitrary, unregulated and uncontrolled. But probably more trusted on the whole, by your average family, than a copper when trouble hits your door.

These splinter groups don't have popular support. They aren't fighting for and with the support of the Catholic Irish population they are fighting for their own ideological aims. They are a minority voice attempting to impose their dream onto the majority. They are asking for something that is impossible, and more importantly not supported by the population they claim to be fighting for.

Thank you Dana for explaining it to me. Since it is a few people making trouble after most everyone else reached a peace agreement, then I have to agree with you. In this case, according to what you've said here, it really does sound like a few troublemakers.

I wonder what they want though? I can't imagine they really want continued war. Who wants that? Honestly, and I mean this from every fiber in my being, I really don't get why people can't live together - live and let live, you know?

In the case with Israel and Palestine, I have to say the Palestinians definitely have a legitimate beef and reason for fighting though.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You placed all acts of terrorism into one group. By saying the word all you are lumping all terrorist actions into one group

Incorrect.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

and by sarcastically saying "lets just give all the terrorists whatever they want" you obviously go against giving terrorists whatever they want.

again incorrect.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

So by taking that together you seem to be against giving into any terrorist's demands.

ahh another assumption. . .Again
Well now, I've been taken out of context. I assumed that since SHE went off of this particular issue and into terroristic attacks IN GENERAL, I followed suit. I again did not state that I believe we should or should not take any particular course of action. I ASKED if that was what SHE WAS SUGGESTING.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Well now, I've been taken out of context. I assumed that since SHE went off of this particular issue and into terroristic attacks IN GENERAL, I followed suit. I again did not state that I believe we should or should not take any particular course of action. I ASKED if that was what SHE WAS SUGGESTING.

How were you taken out of context? I don't mean to pursue this but Sugarpop either pointed out particular terrorist groups or said the word generally while you put in an absolute. Also, there seemed to be a high level of sarcasm and you presented a strawman.

Edit - Explain your last post, don't just say incorrect because I have no idea why you believe I am incorrect..

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Edit - Explain your last post, don't just say incorrect because I have no idea why you believe I am incorrect..

OMFG! I ASKED A FUCKING QUESTION BASED UPON HER POST - I NEVER STATED MY OPINION!
For you to say that I did is incorrect, hence my last post.

[lumberjim]

classic, it seems clear that although you didn't actually spell out your opinion....it was stated clearly by contextual inference.

i gathered that a) you don't like sugarpop and b) you dont think we should grant the wishes of those who would bomb or otherwise terrorize others.

but then, i'm pretty fucking perceptive.

[classicman]

I have nothing but the highest respect for sugarpop and her opinions. I certainly disagree with some of them, but that is irrespective of the point being made here.
My opinion remains unstated and the question I originally asked still goes unanswered. A simple yes or no would suffice.

[lumberjim]

oh, that seems honest. i'll buy it!

[classicman]

Good, cuz I'm serious - I have no problem with her - at all.

[Sundae]

This helps reflect the opinion of people in Northern Ireland.

Yes, it is a British website, but Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. And Ireland (which I have always called Eire due to my heritage) is geographically part of the British Isles.

I am half Irish in the way Americans assess things. I was brought up Catholic - and only my brother and I have no faith. And I don't mean Christmas and Easter, I mean weekly Mass and fasting on Holy Days and denying yourself through Lent and reflecting through Advent and all the kit and caboodle. No, I don't believe a word of it, but if you're going to do it at least commit to it. And I heard not a word of support for the IRA from any of the priests or Nuns I was taught by.

I am far less tolerant than Dani. I already know that. I have admitted before that although I truly mean my liberal ideals, I am aware they are a veneer that can be scratched away. And I fight it. But even fighting it I have no acceptance of terrorists. We were set an assignment in Religion Education in class once, about how we would feel about the Romans if we were Jews - I was one of only two people that said they would not kill them. I might want to, but wouldn't. Because of my personal experience of terrorism

I know I am being reactionary here. I admit it. Of course I don't hate every pale skinned red-headed person. Or black headed person with wiry hair and freckles. Or anyone called Doyle. Literally, that is my family. And me (if I'd got the hair colour I deserved). But I hate people who kill innocents to get their way.

In my mind the bell tolls for the armed forces and the soldiers. But also for the pizza delivery mean. The builders. The taxi drivers. The people in pubs. The OAPs in Enniskillan who shined their medals up for Remembrance Day. The Dads out shopping with their kids for Mothers Day.

You had one attack in America.

How would you feel? How would you feel if it was your Grandad celebrating surviving WWII? Your Mum going into Woolworths in Omagh? Your sister's boyfriend in a pub in Birmingham? Your friend who was a pizza delivery man right up until last weekend?

I'll leave it to people more intelligent and balanced than me to argue the politics. I hate the fucking murderous bastards. Death is never a poltical tool , unless it's suicide (and even that I query).

I've posted this before. You might roll your eyes. But it was shown here at the time (in advance of the film Rattle & Hum). And I think it shows the true voice of the Irish. It was originally an atrocity by the British forces. So was Amritsah (look it up). But so was American treatment of fellow Americans who happened to have different coloured skin. We are all guilty by our ancestry. But those of us who do not believe we are damned by the sins of our father's fathers (ad infinitum) can say, "I'm so sick of it!"

Bono on Enniskillan.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I have no acceptance of terrorists.
I hate people who kill innocents to get their way.

Quite clear and well put ... depending upon the definition of terrorist.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

We are all guilty by our ancestry.

I disagree with that - I am not guilty of anything that another human did. Especially what was done during a different time an place in the world. Things have changed so much so rapidly, especially the last 20-50 years, that to hold me somehow responsible for something someone else did seems ludicrous to me. But hey, my views aren't popular, they're just mine.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by classicman

But hey, my views aren't popular, they're just mine.

Tagline!

[classicman]

Ohhhh thanks! Been thinkin bout a new one!

[glatt]

Originally Posted by classicman

I disagree with that - I am not guilty of anything that another human did. Especially what was done during a different time an place in the world. Things have changed so much so rapidly, especially the last 20-50 years, that to hold me somehow responsible for something someone else did seems ludicrous to me.

Hypothetically speaking, if Madoff's kids weren't involved with defrauding billions from investors, but they clearly benefited financially, are they guilty of anything? What if they don't return the money once they find out about the fraud? Are they guilty then? They don't know exactly how much was ill gotten and who is owed what. Are they guilty to keep it, if they weren't involved in the original fraud? Are they guilty at all for living high on the hog for all those years? Assuming they didn't know?

[Pico and ME]

Hmmm, without guilt then, there is no sense of responsibility to others. Huh.

[classicman]

Glatt - I was referring to my ancestors, sorry for any confusion on your part.\

Pico - Put your stick elsewhere, mkay?