Obama's Dog

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You can't fool us. You are Bill Clinton aren't you.

Nope. I inhaled.

And I still dont eat bullshit sandwiches like that suggested by Nirvana in the case of the IN law.

But when have you ever let the facts get in the way of a discussion.

[Nirvana]

Well Redux what part of that new proposed legislation do you feel is fair to a hobby breeder? The part where the sale of 5 dogs makes them a pet dealer? Large breed dogs frequently have double digit litters so effectively if some hobby breeders have one litter they are automatically a pet dealer? Everyone will have to get their pets from pet mills in the future because they are the only ones that will be able to afford to pay to have animals. Your rights are being taken away and you are looking in another direction. That is so high on the bullshit meter its off the chart!

The whole point is the proposed legislation is BS but you would rather dwell on an aspect that I got wrong. You said you are for ending pet mills and this legislation puts all hobby breeders out of business so you will have no choice if you want a pet but to get it at commercial breeding operations. Duplicity is your friend.

[Nirvana]

This city council Manteca CA. is meeting today to propose the mandatory spaying and neutering of all dogs.

1. CC Waive the first reading by substitution of the title and introduce Ordinance No.
1434, an Ordinance of the City Council of the City of Manteca Amending
Sections 6.10.010 through 6.10.130 of Title 6 of the Manteca Municipal Code
Pertaining to the Spaying and Neutering of Dogs.

http://www.ci.manteca.ca.us/legis/agenda.pdf

[Nirvana]

Spay/Neuter is an important medical decision that should be made for each individual pet only after careful consultation with the pet's veterinarian, instead of mandated at a fixed age by the government.

Mandatory Spay/Neuter, when enacted in other locations including San Mateo County, California, and Santa Cruz County, California, and more recently the City of Los Angeles, California, has caused rates of animal shelter intakes, euthanasia rates, and animal control government costs to go up in relation to surrounding communities where Mandatory Spay/Neuter has not been enacted.

Mandatory Spay/Neuter, where enacted, has reduced compliance with pet licensing, and in certain area, has also reduced compliance with rabies vaccination requirements. Reduction in the percentage of pets vaccinated against rabies could have serious public health consequences.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Everyone will have to get their pets from pet mills in the future because they are the only ones that will be able to afford to pay to have animals.

Will the disparity in price be that much? I thought you said what the Why can't you pass the cost on to the consumer like every other business. Price was really not the issue when we were breeding, especially the Goldens. Isn't price in that market still a very low priority for the buyer?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Reduction in the percentage of pets vaccinated against rabies could have serious public health consequences.

So does overpopulation - they are trying to solve a problem (perceived or real) I don't know what a real solution is, but they are trying - I'll at least give them that.

[Nirvana]

So you would be ok with them [gov] coming over and putting a device on your car to limit your speed to 35 miles an hour? Maybe they will have one that makes it impossible for you to have water in your house any hotter than 55 degrees. The government is messing with your property, what you own, and if you give these rights away other rights will follow.

[Nirvana]

Originally Posted by classicman

Will the disparity in price be that much? I thought you said what the Why can't you pass the cost on to the consumer like every other business. Price was really not the issue when we were breeding, especially the Goldens. Isn't price in that market still a very low priority for the buyer?

Most hobby breeders do not breed to sell pets to the public. They breed to improve the breed and to enjoy their hobby of showing. If the consumer has a choice to buy cheap imitation products they will spend less money for inferior dogs. Hobby breeders would have to move to avoid mandatory spay and neuter laws that are popping up all over. Say you are buying a really good pedigreed female to start showing and breeding. In my breed that means $2500. On top of that the law in Maine will make it $650 per intact female who could even afford to have pets unless you spay them and you cannot show a neutered animal in conformation? None of the cost mentioned above include health care or feeding. What would the cost of a puppy be? Shall hobby breeders be like milk producers and sell always at a loss?
There will be people selling illegally because of these laws and people will find them and get their cheap poorly bred dogs from them. This is already happening.

[Nirvana]

I should preface that not every puppy in the litter will be show worthy that is where the pets produced by hobby breeders can be available to the public. Hobby breeders in Maine would have to "gift" their extra puppies or "collect and hoard" the extra puppies they are not allowed to sell without extensive fees and licensing.

[DanaC]

Nirvana, I havent time to go searching through the links, but at what age is the spaying supposed to occur?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

So you would be ok with them [gov] coming over and putting a device on your car to limit your speed to 35 miles an hour? Maybe they will have one that makes it impossible for you to have water in your house any hotter than 55 degrees. The government is messing with your property, what you own, and if you give these rights away other rights will follow.

Don't get all bent at me I was just asking a question. How does this relate to my question?

Originally Posted by Nirvana

If the consumer has a choice to buy cheap imitation products they will spend less money for inferior dogs.

Not always. IIRC I brought this up pages ago. The market for high end purebreds is changing. Perhaps I am incorrect here, but I look at these dogs similar to a Maserati or a Ferrari.

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Say you are buying a really good pedigreed female to start showing and breeding. In my breed that means $2500. On top of that the law in Maine will make it $650 per intact female who could even afford to have pets unless you spay them and you cannot show a neutered animal in conformation?

Thats $650 per female breeding or female born? Which is it? What is the average litter size? If its 6 than the cost goes up about $110 per pup ... very nominal increase if $2500 per dog. Just trying to understand the numbers.

Originally Posted by Nirvana

None of the cost mentioned above include health care or feeding. What would the cost of a puppy be?

Those are all constants costs and have no bearing here - you have to pay for all that either way.

Originally Posted by Nirvana

There will be people selling illegally because of these laws and people will find them and get their cheap poorly bred dogs from them. This is already happening.

There will be more - I got that. Hard to calculate how many "more"

[Nirvana]

Why is a fee necessary for a hobby breeder? Let say a kennel in Maine has 10 intact females that is $650 per female that you have to pay the local government to have these dogs on top of what you paid to buy the dogs. [$6500.00]What part of how can anyone afford that are you missing? Most breeders are not selling the higher end dogs they retain them for breeding they sell one or two show and breeding quality puppies and the rest are the pets, in my breed pets are $450 and up that come from champion pedigrees. I do not place pets with papers for breeding. Sometimes I neuter them before they leave.
You are incorrect about the dog"market" people are buying mutts, "designer mutts" which have the potential to have twice as many problems as purebreds because they carry the genes for different breeds. It is PC now to "rescue" which makes people feel all philanthropic until they get little foo foo home and he is a monster. Ask Ellen.
I have never had more than 2-3 intact females at any given time thats just me, but I will speak up for those who have a right to keep as many as they can care for in a humane manner otherwise I and pet owners are next on the list. It will be illegal to own animals all because people do not understand what is going on in their own state legislature.

For Dana; spaying is to occur at 6 months. I have two very tiny Chihuahuas 2lbs and I guess if I lived in a mandatory spay neuter area I would have to move rather then see if a vet would kill these two while performing a spay.

[Nirvana]

The government is trying to tell you what to do in your own home. Your civil rights are being taken away.

[Nirvana]

CM I don't think you understand that hobby breeding is not a commercial venture it is a "hobby", that means its costs money to do it, breaking even is a dream! The cost of supplies, veterinary care, dog shows, traveling can never be paid for by selling puppies. Lumping hobby breeders in with commercial kennels is wrong and will be the demise of quality purebred dogs and pet owners.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Why is a fee necessary for a hobby breeder? Let say a kennel in Maine has 10 intact females that is $650 per female that you have to pay the local government to have these dogs on top of what you paid to buy the dogs. [$6500.00]What part of how can anyone afford that are you missing?

WHETHER IT WAS PER MOTHER OR PER PUP. I GOT IT NOW - THANKS

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Most breeders are not selling the higher end dogs they retain them for breeding they sell one or two show and breeding quality puppies and the rest are the pets, in my breed pets are $450 and up that come from champion pedigrees. I do not place pets with papers for breeding. Sometimes I neuter them before they leave.

You brought up the $2500 number. Now you say the number is $450. Which is it $450 or $2500. OR is that now the range. I thought that was exceptionally high, We sold ours for $700-$750. So you would compare your dogs to, say an Acura versus a Yugo?

It seems more like a seating license when people buy season tickets for their football team.

Originally Posted by Nirvana

You are incorrect about the dog"market" people are buying mutts, "designer mutts" which have the potential to have twice as many problems as purebreds because they carry the genes for different breeds. It is PC now to "rescue" which makes people feel all philanthropic until they get little foo foo home and he is a monster. Ask Ellen.

I have seen plenty of health problems with purebreds as well. Yes they are better, but by no means immune. I've also seen many issues with their intellect and attitude due to constant breeding within the same lineage.

Oh, and who the hell is Ellen?