Jobs used as bargaining chip

[infinite monkey]

DING DING DING!

Death threats mounting. Oh, and a lot of dirty looks.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Some

OK, This is interesting. You're saying some teachers and some foster parents deserve this respect, and some don't. It that based on how good they are, or how much they have to sacrifice/risk?

I know this is getting off into a gray area, but I kind of feel like by defining the gray areas we can make the other areas clearer.

[piercehawkeye45]

The entire thing is a gray area. Obviously there is a difference between someone who wants to serve their country and will sacrifice their life to do it and an opportunist who will try to get whatever they want at the expense of others, but going into detail about what jobs are honorable or not will only result in biased, hypocritical, and blatantly naive remarks since we don't have a clue how each job actually affects society, what goes into it (this includes sacrifice), and the type of people that perform those jobs.

To me, it's not what job you do, it is how you approach the job. If you work as a janitor and approach the job in a honorable way, I will respect that to the fullest. If you are in the Marines and are a complete entitled asshole who shows no respect for anyone besides oneself, I will have absolutely no respect for you or what you do.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The entire thing is a gray area. Obviously there is a difference between someone who wants to serve their country and will sacrifice their life to do it and an opportunist who will try to get whatever they want at the expense of others, but going into detail about what jobs are honorable or not will only result in biased, hypocritical, and blatantly naive remarks since we don't have a clue how each job actually affects society, what goes into it (this includes sacrifice), and the type of people that perform those jobs.

To me, it's not what job you do, it is how you approach the job. If you work as a janitor and approach the job in a honorable way, I will respect that to the fullest. If you are in the Marines and are a complete entitled asshole who shows no respect for anyone besides oneself, I will have absolutely no respect for you or what you do.

this one comes first because it says it best. As for generalizations (discussed below), I find them useful in direct proportion to their specificity. They can be a useful starting point, but an intelligent approach retains an openness to new information and a willingness to change one's conclusion to conform to new facts.

Today there was a story about a Navy medic who

Authorities have released the name of a Navy corpsman whose writings allegedly describing explosives being planted at San Clemente High School touched off a massive evacuation on the first day of class at one of Orange County's largest public school campuses.

Daniel Morgan, 22, was last seen at Camp Pendleton on Tuesday night and was absent without authorization. Officials searching for the corpsman said they believed he was driving a white Jeep Wrangler with a black top. The vehicle's California license plate is 6NKZ930.

--snip--

Sheriff's officials did not discuss a motive or detail what Morgan allegedly described in his writings, other than to say he had placed explosives in or around San Clemente High.

Military, but bomb threats? respect or no? See? you generalization has real limits. just one current events example.

Originally Posted by glatt

OK, so let's break this down.

This sort of respect is earned after the following requirements are met, right?
- service is for you and me
- 2 year or more time commitment
- risking life is not required, but helps (road side cleaner was included in examples of honorable jobs)
- death on job is not required

Did I miss anything?

So does public school teacher fit? How about police or firefighters? How about Big Brother/Big Sister volunteer? Foster parents?

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

FA Administrator?

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Some, yes, yes, yes, some.

Death on job not required, but possibility of personal endangerment is a major plus.

eta, sacrifice.

Originally Posted by glatt

OK, This is interesting. You're saying some teachers and some foster parents deserve this respect, and some don't. It that based on how good they are, or how much they have to sacrifice/risk?

I know this is getting off into a gray area, but I kind of feel like by defining the gray areas we can make the other areas clearer.

What about all the other public *servants*? and sacrifice? sacrifice of what? It is right to consider all public employees the same (at least for a starting point). Politicians are public servants too, right? respected? No, not really. I think the marketing of a given sector makes a huge difference in the how the members of that sector are percieved. But we need all types of people, types of workers to function as a society, despite the clear fact that not all of them are equally well represented or respected.

I think teachers, for example, have a much more direct impact on the quality of my life than the military. As such, they're more important, but they're not paid as much nor are they respected by most of the public as much. That is unfair (boo hoo), but more importantly, it exacerbates the vicious cycle of poor performance, poor morale, poor reputation, etc etc. This does not help make things better.

Being stuck with labels and stereotypes, stopping there and being unwilling or unable to think further severely limits one's ability to function in the world. It's like only having a club to solve any problem that might arise. SMASH! Fucking neaderthals.

[Undertoad]

Personal sacrifice is pretty big. The inner-city teachers are heroes.

Most teachers are commendable. We thank them for what they do.

Soldiers sacrifice their entire lives for years, basically; it is not a "job". You don't get to go home to your loved ones at the end of the day. You make no decisions for yourself. You are told how to dress, what to eat, where to shit, where to sleep. Under a rigorous and probably unfair command structure that needs to own your ass entirely, and ship your ass to destinations unknown tomorrow, whether it be frigid Iceland or the middle of the Sahara desert.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Personal sacrifice is pretty big. The inner-city teachers are heroes.

Most teachers are commendable. We thank them for what they do.

Soldiers VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE sacrifice their entire lives for years, basically; it is not a "job". You don't get to go home to your loved ones at the end of the day. You make no decisions for yourself. You are told how to dress, what to eat, where to shit, where to sleep. Under a rigorous and probably unfair command structure that needs to own your ass entirely, and ship your ass to destinations unknown tomorrow, whether it be frigid Iceland or the middle of the Sahara desert.

Not really fixed, but improved, clarified.

You absolutely leave out the whole getting paid part. Economics is a major factor for everyone who signs up. "you make no decisions for yourself"? wtf? Who is making the decisions then? Our military isn't only like Full Metal Jacket. Lots, probably most (careful, just estimating that statistic, might be covered with my own poo) service men and women get to see their loved ones at the end of the day.

you describe a segment of military life, not for all members, not for all time. Decisions about how to respect, pay, hire, etc our military should not be based on such a narrow slice of their work.

[Undertoad]

Have you... known a lot of military, Biggie? You a big fan, you follow this stuff a lot?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Have you... known a lot of military, Biggie? You a big fan, you follow this stuff a lot?

Does it matter? Please stay on topic.

[Undertoad]

I was trying to figure out a pleasant way to say how his argument came from ignorance, other than just saying

It wasn't a sacrifice because they didn't do it for free? Really? You wanted them to do it for free? You don't value a standing military when the nation was attacked on its own soil only 10 years ago? This stems from either simple ignorance of the world, or a hatred of the nation that probably comes out of a bad relationship with a parent. In either case, the military person's sacrifice is only that much larger for having dickweeds like BigV going around spouting off that sort of shit. Do it for free, he said. What an asshole.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I was trying to figure out a pleasant way to say how his argument came from ignorance, other than just saying

It wasn't a sacrifice because they didn't do it for free? Really? You wanted them to do it for free? You don't value a standing military when the nation was attacked on its own soil only 10 years ago? This stems from either simple ignorance of the world, or a hatred of the nation that probably comes out of a bad relationship with a parent. In either case, the military person's sacrifice is only that much larger for having dickweeds like BigV going around spouting off that sort of shit. Do it for free, he said. What an asshole.

Good, thanks for going the extra mile in the interest of civil discourse.

As for your remarks that stayed on the cutting room floor, I would like to address them too.

I do believe that soldiers sacrifice a lot. I think they sacrifice more than school teachers and cops and librarians and politicians and mail carriers and many others. I also think that they make that sacrifice knowingly and voluntarily and are compensated for that sacrifice and service. I also believe that those other public servants also sacrifice, and do so voluntarily and are compensated. I did not and do not suggest that they serve for free. I do value a standing army, though I think our current military-industrial complex is vastly outsized compared to the main mission, and that surplus gets exercised in non-main missions like disaster relief and police work. I freely admit that I'm not a military expert or a political science master, you get my opinions informed by a life lived while paying attention.

I'm glad you didn't suggest that I'm ignorant of the world; I'm not. Or that I harbor a hatred of our nation; I don't. It is prudent of you to refrain from speculating on a non-existent bad relationship with my parents; that one would have definitely been covered in your own poo.

My gratitude or my disdain affects a soldier's sacrifice *not one iota*. If that were true, then the current attitude of adulation for our military would diminish the service of our military, and the service of, say, the veterans of Viet Nam would be elevated. There is no logic in such a statement.

I might be an asshole, but I didn't say do it for free.

[BigV]

I'm an Air Force brat, Dad was TSgt, USAF, Ret. Mom was in the Civil Service and worked at every Air Force base where we were stationed. Three brothers in the service, two Marine Corps, one Army. I have an uncle, very dear to me, USAF, CMSgt, Ret. His wife, my aunt, also Civil Service, same career arc. Ex FIL is USMC Ret. (also police precinct captain, so local civil service connections too, not just federal).

I do follow it. I am a big fan. I have made numerous posts clearly stating my respect and gratitude for the service given to me and my country by the men and women of our military. What I know about the military is based on my own personal experience *and* what I read and hear. What I know with absolute certainty is that our military (and all the other soldiers and sailors and airmen the world over) is comprised of people. Just people. They've made decisions about their lives, their service much like I might. They want a lot of the same stuff I want. Certainly there are areas that don't overlap, and the methods to achieve our goals, shared or not, may well differ dramatically.

But here in our country, at this time, our civilian led, all volunteer force is made up of people who *choose* this path. No one chooses (no sane person) without thinking about how this will affect their life, including the economic and social aspects of their life. Our military, especially individual service members, enjoys high status now, and that is a good thing, it is justified. But perhaps the unarticulated point we don't agree on is that the institution deserves respect as an institution, but the individual service members deserve respect on their own merits. Which might include their affiliation with the military, or not, as the news story above would indicate.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by BigV

I'm an Air Force brat, Dad was TSgt, USAF, Ret. Mom was in the Civil Service and worked at every Air Force base where we were stationed. Three brothers in the service, two Marine Corps, one Army. I have an uncle, very dear to me, USAF, CMSgt, Ret. His wife, my aunt, also Civil Service, same career arc. Ex FIL is USMC Ret. (also police precinct captain, so local civil service connections too, not just federal).

I do follow it. I am a big fan. I have made numerous posts clearly stating my respect and gratitude for the service given to me and my country by the men and women of our military. What I know about the military is based on my own personal experience *and* what I read and hear. What I know with absolute certainty is that our military (and all the other soldiers and sailors and airmen the world over) is comprised of people. Just people. They've made decisions about their lives, their service much like I might. They want a lot of the same stuff I want. Certainly there are areas that don't overlap, and the methods to achieve our goals, shared or not, may well differ dramatically.

But here in our country, at this time, our civilian led, all volunteer force is made up of people who *choose* this path. No one chooses (no sane person) without thinking about how this will affect their life, including the economic and social aspects of their life. Our military, especially individual service members, enjoys high status now, and that is a good thing, it is justified. But perhaps the unarticulated point we don't agree on is that the institution deserves respect as an institution, but the individual service members deserve respect on their own merits. Which might include their affiliation with the military, or not, as the news story above would indicate.

Well put.

[Undertoad]

Well then I take it back.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Well then I take it back.

Fair enough.

UT, please let me be clear. I hold you in very high esteem. I bear zero ill will toward you. I value your input and look forward to reading your posts.

glatt said it very well, clarifying these gray areas might help clarify other areas. For me, that is a goal worth working toward.

[Pico and ME]

Big V - I stand in awe. Those were awesome posts.