Whatever happened to the McCarthurs and the Pattons

[jaguar]

Partial measures aren't the problem, the wrong measures are the problem.
UT I feel a touch like a broken record on that one, what's needed is a Marshall plan for the ME, massive economic stimulus, give them jobs and SUVs and watch the decrepit dictatorships and terrorist sympathies slip away. Really is that simple. Apart from Saudi, US backing and Suadi Royal policies have created a country so FUBARed if they leave I don't know what the answer is.

[Undertoad]

Their governments won't stand for such a thing, so won't we have to overturn them first?

Since the average GDP per capita in Saudi Arabia is higher than that of Poland, Latvia, Russia, Chile and (*ahem*) Turkey, and since we already give Egypt $2.2B per year and they still hate us, what evidence do you have that poverty and/or lack of giving is a solution?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Since the average GDP per capita in Saudi Arabia is higher than that of Poland, Latvia, Russia, Chile and (*ahem*) Turkey, and since we already give Egypt $2.2B per year and they still hate us, what evidence do you have that poverty and/or lack of giving is a solution?

The Saudi and Egyptian governments, which are the beneficiaries of the GDP and foreign aid, are quite supportive of the US, at least to our face. Ironically, US support of these dictatorships feeds anti-US sentiment, which allows the governments to use anti-Americanism to deflect resentment away from themselves.

[Happy Monkey]

Well, it's not quite that simple, since the decrepit dictatorships will still be there while the plan is in effect, so you have to have a good way to work around them.

[jaguar]

Er...take a look at a wealth distribution chart for Saudi. Then get back to me about averages. HM is dead on, the US has fostered these regimes for decades - knowing full well they've formented islamic rage as a tool for controlling the population. In terms of how to go about it, bypass the governments, start programmes to foster small biz, R&D, charity type stuff, I'd love to see the governments publically try and shut a programme like that down. Give me a breakdown of where that 2.2B goes, I doubt much of it goes in anything near that direction.

It's not just about poverty, it's about what economic stability and growth brings to a society. It's a bit hard to follow when you've lived in a western country all your life where we moved from needs to wants a long time ago but keeping people inpoverished is a damn good way to keep them under control, they don't worry too much about politics when they're desperate for work.

[Troubleshooter]

I'm reminded of the issue in 1984 where the gov'ts maintain conflict to keep the countries manageable.

[Undertoad]

$1.3B goes to millitary aid, the rest is in humanitarian programs like USAID:

In 1999, the United States and Egypt agreed to a ten-year plan to facilitate Egypt's transition to a self-sustaining market economy. The plan emphasizes promoting job creation, investing in people, and optimizing use of human and natural resources. It focuses on increasing mutual trade and attracting more investment to Egypt, while at the same time developing a more productive and better-trained workforce. Continuing infrastructure investments, protecting the environment and natural resources, strengthening health and family planning services, promoting citizen participation, and expanding and improving educational opportunities are all areas of mutual concern.

98% of Egyptians hate the US. It's a much higher number than hate their own government. How are we doing exactly what you want in Egypt, and it's having exactly the opposite result?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

98% of Egyptians hate the US.

Classic Rush Limbaugh education. As one Egyptian friend keeps telling his family back home - its the government - not the American people - who have changed so adversely. Most all people throughout the world both loved the American government and American people. How do you destroy so much popularity so quickly? Impose Christian morals (ie. the Crusades) on international relations. Use the Bible as the basis of all solutions. Fix their governments in with moral Christian values - whether they like it or not. Encourage zionist Israelis to kill anyone who is not a Jew and call that moral. To justify their anti-American propaganda, Rush Limbaughs must claim the world hates Americans. Its called a self-fullfilling prophesy. The world - even Canada - hates George Jr. But can an intelligent person blame them?

[jaguar]

Firstly, giving 1.3B to prop up a corrupt undemocratic regime.
Secondly, doing it for decades.
Thirdly, doing it to a regime that also has at times actively encouraged hatred of the US.

Since you like quoting:

Significant challenges remain to Egypt's full participation in the global economy. These include policy constraints, a work force growing faster than job creation, an educational system which is not providing all the skills needed by the economy, and low levels of investment in training.

It's a drop in the ocean, the stuff that's needed isn't there. The Marshall plan was over 100billion in today's money (not far off what invading Iraq and creating another focus point for hatred cost), if you threw that at it you'd see real change. You're dealing with decades of indoctrinated hatred, that's not easy to dismantle, nor is it cheap but it's a lot cheaper than *not* spending that money. Extremeists of all shades, nazis to jahidis rely on angry, hurt, disinfranchised people for recruits, remove that pool, remove the problem. It really is that simple.

Bombing people may be a satisfying simplictic solution to placate hyperpatriotic americans but it takes real balls to suck it up and solve the problem instead.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

The Marshall plan was over 100billion in today's money (not far off what invading Iraq and creating another focus point for hatred cost), if you threw that at it you'd see real change...

Bombing people may be a satisfying simplictic solution to placate hyperpatriotic americans but it takes real balls to suck it up and solve the problem instead.

let's not forget that the marshall plan was put into place after completely leveling a few countries. you can't buy love where they already hate you and feel they are beating you. part of the reason the marshall plan worked as well as it did is that those who opposed the allies were absolutely crushed. the aid was intended to help those that had been hurt in the process.

[Undertoad]

There's one big difference between the Marshall Plan and such a concept in the M.E. That is what you have at the end of it after you've spent all that money.

The root problem of Arabic failure is not that they don't have a batch of infrastructure. It's that their culture is fundamentally flawed in the direction of never becoming productive and modern. Germany was the most productive nation in the world before it had to be crushed and re-built. It could be made productive in a new direction. The heart of the M.E. has not produced anything but oil and violence since the years had three numbers in 'em. 1B or 100B is a rathole until the culture changes.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The heart of the M.E. has not produced anything but oil and violence since the years had three numbers in 'em. 1B or 100B is a rathole until the culture changes.

Been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh again? Iraq and Iran have been two of the most productive nations in that part of the world - even with governments that subvert progress. These were some of the world's more industrious emerging nations. Only nations of great abilities can accomplish nuclear weapons and other advanced technologies - especially with such destructive governments. An American must learn of the world before making wild and speculative conclusions.

No one can fix their governments. That is something they must learn. And until they do, they will not achieve what other third world nations such as S Korea have accomplished. It is up to them to fix what holds them back. But instead, we decided to fix it for them. Dumb dumb dumb - Rush Limbaugh thinkers. No wonder these same people see enemies everywhere in the world. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[jaguar]

Yea those arabs have never invented anything, ever. Clearly Islamic culture is completely flawed. If you want to make ignorant racist (yes, it is racist) statements like that you're going to have to provide some pretty amazing proof that an entire peoples is destined to failure or some shit.

[Undertoad]

tw, that's why I said "the heart" - Iraq is not "the heart", and Iran isn't even all that Middle-Eastern at all.

Jag, every culture has a different level of productivity, and that level is determined roughly by a combination of the government in place and the character of the people. It's not racist to notice that some nations are productive while others sit there and stagnate. Here is Ralph Peters' "Seven Signs of Unproductive States":

# Restrictions on the free flow of information.
# The subjugation of women.
# Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
# The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
# Domination by a restrictive religion.
# A low valuation of education.
# Low prestige assigned to work.

It's not hard to see why these cultural factors would keep a people back. It's not racism to simply notice that cultural factors prevent a nation from becoming productive. The Arabic world has unfortunately started with a very tribal character and then has been gifted the greatest gift the planet has to offer: oil. Without getting them to send their kids to school, stop keeping the women at home, and stop blaming everyone else (the jews, the west) for their collective failure, further gifts would be a waste.

[jaguar]

How do you suggest those things are overcome? Bombing? You seriously think the entire population is unwilling to work? On a community scale with wealth comes enlightenment and a higher chance of progressive culture. I'd also question where and how you think the last two apply. If you can show me an example where wealth and these symptoms don't correlate I'll be interested.

As for oil, only about 0.01% of the population ever sees the money, particularly in saudi. One reason these places are in the sorry state they are is the corrupt, undemocratic regimes that have been artificially propped up and installed for decades. Now who did that...