Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm sorry I mentioned that bit about what I would do to a teacher who hit my kid. I'm not sorry because I take it back, I'm sorry because you latched on to it and missed the rest of my post.

I didn't miss the rest of the post.

There's a difference between adults and kids. I have no responsibility to teach discipline to adults, so I'll use violence on them if I need to.

Which still teaches your children that might makes right, and violence is ok if it's adult violent to an adult.

Plus, they are the same size as me, so it's a fair fight.

So, if it's ok adult to adult, and size to size, then child to child is ok?

Either "violence isn't the answer" or "violence is ok sometimes". Can't have it both ways. Do as I say, not as I do?

We are in agreement there. The only problem is that to you, discipline=hitting. To me, discipline=discipline.

No, to me, hitting= I've tried everything else and you still didn't get it, so let me get your attention.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by glatt

P.S. If any teacher laid a hand on my kids, they would feel what it is like to be hit themselves.

This is why the rule is in effect, and when talking, cajoling and bribing doesn't work, call parents, and when they don't come, there is one recourse: to call police.

Once the police arrived, it was no longer the school's problem.
Don't be pissed at the school because the police cuffed the child.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The cops are the only recourse these poor teachers have when "time-out" fails to work. At last count, I believe it fails 100% of the time.

"Time Out" only works for children who have a conscience.

[xoxoxoBruce]

First you have to get their attention.

[mrnoodle]

It's nice that we found at least some common ground on this, but I still think the reason why so many kids are out of control in school is because they've outlawed the paddle. I support the outlawing, but ONLY because the caliber of many teachers today is about as pathetic as the caliber of student. The ones that arent' getting pregnant by their charges are truly abusive in other ways (of course the majority aren't that bad, but you see the trend every day)

I told a story here one time about my dad's experience teaching high school (maybe it was jr. high) shop class to a bunch of cornfed football players. They had run out the previous teachers and were trying to do so to my dad. Long story short, one day he had enough. When they came in the next day, having openly defied his instruction to clean up the shop after use, he gave them a choice: leave my classroom now and never come back (bonus: meeting with the parents to explain why) or stay and take your medicine. One kid left, and was later expelled (the story is much deeper than just not cleaning up after class). After the kid left, dad shut the door, removed the Belt of Justice, and lined 'em up. Each got a thwack or two, all yelled. Some cried. None ever crossed him again, and he says they were his best class ever after that.

Only one parent complained: the father of the kid who walked out. Not a single other parent complained, and several called the principal to SUPPORT what had happened. The football coaches were amazed at the new attitude these kids showed.

My dad didn't do it out of anger, didn't do it to show that might makes right (in fact, a couple of those kids could've taken him in a one-on-one fight. He was only 5'9" and 150# or so). He explained what was going to happen, why it was happening, gave them the choice, and administered the discipline. This happened in 1961, I think -- it was his first teaching job after getting his masters' after the Navy.

I admit that approach wouldn't work today. The kids would be more likely to pull a gun or knife than take a spanking, and they might have already spent time in jail. The other teachers would file a complaint, the principal would lose his/her job, every talk show in the world would provide wall-to-wall coverage, and at some point he would be accused of a hate crime, if one of em was gay or black or something.

So, yeah. call the cops. It's the only option they have left when things get out of control.

[lookout123]

i'll be thirty-one in a few days so i grew up in public schools in the '80s. my grade school still had a wooden paddle that was used pretty damn frequently.

a pattern that i recognized as a child and i focus on now is that the kids who got in trouble at school, generally, were the ones who had no fear of retribution from home. they would act out, disrespect the teacher and eventually get sent to the office. Mr Sperry, cranky old drunk that he was, would take the wood to their butts and that was it for them.

those of us that didn't get sent to the office didn't behave out of some fear of that paddle. it was our parents. i knew (as did most of my friends) that if i got into big enough trouble that the principal used the paddle, then my parents would get the phone call - and that is when the real trouble kicked in.

I wasn't abused in any way, but i knew that my parents would be disappointed in me. (i had conscience enough to not like that), but also that my dad may take a physical discipline route, a lecture, grounding, etc. it was consistant, harsh, and effective.

today, the school can't do anything because if the kids get in trouble or aren't doing well in class, it must be the teachers' fault or some other kids. there is very little personal accountability for these kids anymore. there are no consequences to their actions. kids aren't any different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago - the parents are different. the parents do not teach the children any respect for authority. without respect for authority, forget about discipline. without discipline kiss any hopes for healthy, well-adjusted children right out the window.

that is why my kid is already in a private school. not because we are snobs (i hate the idea of private schools and ridiculed private school kids when i was a public school kid.) but because i get to choose a school that maintains discipline in a way i support. they choose their students based on interviews, not zip codes or economic situations(sizeable scholarships for volunteer work). the parents have real money invested in their child's education and work with the teachers for REAL accountability for the kids.

[glatt]

I'm surprised your school had a paddle that recently. My parents' schools supposedly had them in the 40's. I hadn't heard of them since then.

Originally Posted by lookout123

today, the school can't do anything because if the kids get in trouble or aren't doing well in class, it must be the teachers' fault or some other kids. there is very little personal accountability for these kids anymore. there are no consequences to their actions. kids aren't any different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago - the parents are different. the parents do not teach the children any respect for authority. without respect for authority, forget about discipline. without discipline kiss any hopes for healthy, well-adjusted children right out the window.

Agreed.

[Trilby]

I've never spanked my boys...however, I have waved the .45 around in a menacing manner....seriously, though...wolf is dead right. Shoulda been called on a psych emergency and then everybody would've been

[lookout123]

i don't disagree that it should have been a psych emergency call, but if it had been then a different group of people would be pissed.

[mrnoodle]

There are no answers anymore that DON'T piss someone off. Vive la difference I guess. None of the opposing sides of these arguments are powerful enough on their own to actually destroy the world, so I guess the compromises will turn out to be ok.

But if that little girl was mine, she would've performed approximately .0000429 seconds of that little display.

No, I don't have kids, why do you ask?

[dar512]

Hey Glatt. Are you going to answer my question in #71?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by dar512

Hey Glatt. Are you going to answer my question in #71?

I don't have a magic bullet answer.

Basically, with a kid who is disrupting the classroom, the kid should be sent to the principal's office, and the parent should be called to come get them. I think that will work in the overwhelming majority of cases. When it doesn't work, the kid should be romoved from the classroom for good, and put into a special class of some sort for kids with special needs. If the kid is diruptive to the point of being a danger to themselves or someone else, I think it's perfectly appropriate for the cops to come in. Shouldn't happen too often.

The idea is that it shouldn't ever get to this point. If the parents send kids to school who are ready to learn, and the teachers keep the kids engaged, this won't happen often. The detention/suspension route in high school has decent results, but isn't age appropriate for kindergarten. Good teachers have lots of tricks up their sleeve. I'm not one so I don't know them all, but if the teacher senses trouble brewing in a kindergarten classroom because the kids are getting bored, he/she should consider switching topics. A good teacher will come up with lesson plans that will keep the kids engaged. Kids who are bad chemistry when seated together should be put at separate tables. Much disruptive behavior is because the kid is seeking attention. Give them attention ahead of time, and they won't need to seek it. So have a schedule of special jobs for the kids so they feel like they are part of things. Not real jobs, but token ones. Line leader, door holder, caboose for the line, helper, paper-passer-outer. Whatever. I don't know all the tricks. But the good teachers do.

[BigV]

disclaimer:

have just rec'd news of death in family. will post fuller response eventually.

summary:

dar512, glatt, bigv--right.

troubleshooter, catwoman, silverfox, mrnoodle--varying degrees of missing the point, mostly off base.

onyxcougar--alone in a special category of wrongness.

later..

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by BigV

disclaimer:

have just rec'd news of death in family. will post fuller response eventually.

summary:

dar512, glatt, bigv--right.

troubleshooter, catwoman, silverfox, mrnoodle--varying degrees of missing the point, mostly off base.

onyxcougar--alone in a special category of wrongness.

later..

Wow, should I feel chastened?

[kerosene]

I still think some kids need spankings (at least temporarily) and some don't. My son has never been spanked. He has never needed it. He is so sensitive that time-outs and taking priveledges and discussions get through to him. He can be stubborn, but that is when his lightsabers are put atop the fridge for a couple of days and he is reminded why when he asks. My step-son, on the other hand, rarely responds to his name, let alone punishment. Nothing seems to bother him or change his behavior unless it is accompanied by a spanking from his dad. After a few days of being with us, a threat of "Do you want a spanking?" does the trick. Every once in a while, he challenges the threat, and finds it to be real. But, for the most part, it works. It isn't laziness. It isn't violent. It is very controlled and dad and him talk about why he got the spanking afterwards. He finally takes it seriously. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Otherwise, this kid wouldn't learn anything, because he just doesn't listen. Difference in wills, difference in personalities.