Rice urges calm, calls Koran desecration abhorrent

[Undertoad]

The perspective of the enemy is critically important when developing intelligence approaches that are not torture.

If you would like, the American public could have a debate about what constitutes torture and when it should be applied. That would be one way to set this line you speak of. But of all the ways I can imagine to set the line, the actions we're talking about fall on the correct side of it. It's not torture. And prisoners do not have the same rights as the rest of the free world. That's why they're prisoners.

And these prisoners aren't even Iraqi, so now you have mixed your metaphors. If Iraq is Vietnam, Guantanamo is...? Hard to keep it all straight, isn't it?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Mark Steyn points out who really started it and why:[/url]

So UT, you have found another Rush Limbaugh.

these riots wouldn't have happened if Imran Khan hadn't provided the short fuse between Newsweek's match and those explosive mobs.

So why are the people so explosive? Does not matter. They are only gooks. They must be evil.

How many harmless things occurred previously to make those people so explosive? We don't need those details. That people are explosive is enough to say we are right and they are wrong. They are explosive. Therefore they must be religious extremists. But they are only gooks.

UT, you are simply promoting more reasons to move that line closer to Saddam and Hitler. Clearly the US did nothing, did nothing, did noooothing (just as Sgt Schultz says) to make those people angry.

Clearly that Pakistani cricket player was only inciting riots for his own personal benefit. Clearly he is too fat and rich to care about important things - like torture and Korans down the toilet. How convenient, UT, that you tactically approve of torture in Guantanamo. No problem. The line is in the wrong place. We just move it a little ... no problem. Harmless.

We can't be wrong. We are the righteous Americans. It must be those religious extremists causing all problems. Take a look in the mirror. Torture is harmless.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If you would like, the American public could have a debate about what constitutes torture and when it should be applied. That would be one way to set this line you speak of. But of all the ways I can imagine to set the line, the actions we're talking about fall on the correct side of it. It's not torture. And prisoners do not have the same rights as the rest of the free world. That's why they're prisoners.

UT now declares actions that do not leave permanent organ damage are not torture. Of course that is torture - except to those who think such principles exist only to be circumvented. He says we can debate what requires no debate. The line has long since been defined. Only an extremist supporter would want to debate a well defined truth.

Torture has long since been defined. America is torturing prisoners - and that is called being patriotic? Yes, America simply decided the entire world is wrong and that torture is no longer torture. That was also the attitude of Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, and Richard Nixon. Unfortunately many also admire these men of anti-American attitudes.

The definitions of torture need no debate. Torture has long been defined. Torture even resulted in many silly Orange Alerts. Alerts based upon "confessions" of prisoners being tortured. UT would have us believe the current administration - who even lied about the aluminum tubes - is moral? He says the definition of torture can change when necessary. We can move the line whenever it is convenient. This is what Hitler did to take and exercise power - to destroy a democracy. Just another lesson one should have learned from history.

Meanwhile UT also says we don't know if the Koran was violated. Bull. We have all but the 'smoking gun' - and administration supporters so immoral as to justify it.

From the Washington Post of 25 May 2005
Gitmo Guards Accused of Mistreating Koran
Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today.

The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers.

... Red Cross investigators in 2002 and 2003 documented what they considered reliable allegations of Koran mistreatment at the facility, and some detainees have made similar allegations through their attorneys. ...

Following the reports of Koran mistreatment by the Red Cross and others, the Pentagon issued rules in January 2003 governing the handling of the book and forbidding its placement on the floor, near a toilet or in other "dirty/wet areas."

[lookout123]

We have all but the 'smoking gun' - and an administration so immoral as to justify it.

yes. we have all BUT a smoking gun. now, i don't know about you, tw, but i personally believe that we should be careful about rushing forward without a "smoking gun". charging forward without that "smoking gun", might lead to some mistakes. but if you don't feel a "smoking gun" is necessary before making up your mind and taking action, who am i to disagree? i mean, after all, you are the one with the brilliant analytical mind who has been able to consistantly see the truth and point it out to us simpletons.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

yes. we have all BUT a smoking gun. now, i don't know about you, tw, but i personally believe that we should be careful about rushing forward without a "smoking gun". charging forward without that "smoking gun", might lead to some mistakes.

Congratulations. You just conceded that we should go back to Afghanistan and find Bin Laden. Bin Laden (and not Saddam) is the smoking gun - the real enemy of America. What took you so long? Oh... that is in direct contradiction to White House dictatorships .... orders.

Well, Rice did not call for calm in The Cellar, did she.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

yes. we have all BUT a smoking gun.

Here you go.

[lookout123]

HM - i don't doubt or necessarily care about a flushed a koran. i was poking tw with a stick. tw - you know that guy who is always demanding the smoking gun? oh, c'mon - you know tw, the author of the previous post, who completely missed the point, yet again?

[Happy Monkey]

It just seemed like a good place to point out that Newsweek's only mistakes were picking a spineless source and retracting the whole story rather than clarifying their sourcing problem.

[Undertoad]

As long as you believe the inmates.

[Undertoad]

There's one other thing I find remarkable about this thread. A few miles north of here is Graterford State Prison. I have no doubt that it is one of the ugliest hell-holes in the state and that 9 out of 10 inmates could complain about abuse far, far, FAR worse than anything we're talking about here. This has been going on as long as people have been imprisoned and... you guys want to not offend religious extremists.

I mean prison rape has been the subject of so many sitcom and standup bits for twenty years that the subject is actually hack and... a spot of menstrual blood to try to get info out of a terrorist and it's the end of the world to you guys.

Hypocrisy.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

There's one other thing I find remarkable about this thread. A few miles north of here is Graterford State Prison. I have no doubt that it is one of the ugliest hell-holes in the state and that 9 out of 10 inmates could complain about abuse far, far, FAR worse than anything we're talking about here.
...
Hypocrisy.

If we want to discuss the disgusting state of our domestic prisons, I'm happy to rail against that as well. But since that is more of a continual than a current event, that discusion wouldn't have the linky goodness of recent reports. I'd love for a national debate to start over improving prison conditions.

However, even taking into account the flaws in the judicial system, prison inmates have been tried and convicted, and aren't merely suspects. And the majority of prison abuse is (I suspect, not know for certain) negligence, willful or not, rather than action on the part of the guards. The sheer scale of the prison problem makes up for that difference, though.

[lookout123]

improving prison conditions.

does burning them down while the residents are sleeping count as improvement?

[Happy Monkey]

So maybe it's not hypocracy. The people who don't care about US prison conditions don't care about abuse in prisoner camps, and the people who do care about prison conditions also care about prisoner abuse.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

snip-- The line has long since been defined. Only an extremist supporter would want to debate a well defined truth.

Torture has long since been defined. America is torturing prisoners - and that is called being patriotic? Yes, America simply decided the entire world is wrong and that torture is no longer torture.

Where can I find this definition you speak of?

The koran problem can be solved by removing all korans from Gitmo.

[Undertoad]

Newsweek Lutefisk Story Sparks Fury Across Volatile Midwest

Decorah, IA - The debris-strewn streets of this remote Midwestern hamlet remain under a tense 24-hour curfew tonight, following weekend demonstrations by rock- and figurine-throwing Lutheran farm wives that left over 200 people injured and leveled the Whippy Dip dairy freeze. The rioting appeared to be prompted, in part, by a report in Newsweek magazine claiming military guards at Spirit Lake’s notorious Okoboji internment center had flushed lutefisk down prison toilets. Newsweek’s late announcement of a retraction seems to have done little to quell the inflamed passions of Lutheran insurgents in the region, as outbreaks of violent mailbox bashings and cow tippings have been reported from Bowbells, North Dakota to Pekin, Illinois.
...
First constructed as a boredom punishment camp for Midwest dissident youth, the US Military Command converted the sprawling Arnold’s Park / Lake Okoboji area into an internment facility to house insurgent detainees. Almost immediately stories began to surface of prisoner mistreatment, including vivisections, anal probes by extraterrestrial strippers, and blackouts of Viking games.

American military spokesmen initially dismissed the stories, but several news organizations – led by Newsweek – obtained a series of shocking photos of a Texas Army Reservist, Tyffanie Cruddup, laughing as she humiliates a naked inmate by putting a Dallas Cowboys stocking hat on his head.

The photos sent the Lutheran street into riots as far as Rheinlander, Wisconsin, and sent shockwaves throughout the media world. The incident received heavy play on network and cable news, the New York Times, Washington Post, Le Monde, the Guardian, Packers Illustrated, and was the subject of over a dozen off-Broadway dramas during the 2004 season. For its part, Newsweek ran a record eight consecutive covers on Okoboji, along with a special commemorative November 3 collector’s issue with pull-out humiliation poster.