Yes, the banning of the juvenile death penalty was...

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by tw

Unfortunately that is exactly how a decent society must work. The alternative is something akin to totalitarianism and Gulags. We have two choices. We try to do the best we can - or we take the Rush Limbaugh "they are evil so cut off their penises" attitude. The Rush Limbaugh solution was also called Stalinism.

You have no right to expect extreme protection. You only have the right to expect protection as best available - and still protect others rights. A percentage of all murders who get out will murder again. That is expected and cannot be avoided. So therefore we should fry all murders. I appreciate your fear. But life is about risk. Deal with the logic. Your fears are not relevant.

We do the best we can to minimize your risks. But that does not justify the frying of all murders, pedophiles or rapists. And yet with all the emotion in your post, that is exactly what you advocate. It is what happens when fear replaces logic.

You want to see emotion? Try explaining this position to the mother of a baby whose body has been found buried in the woods with her skirt hiked up around her little neck. "Ma'am, I feel your pain, but we mustn't be too extreme. Take a deep breath and think about how badly we would all feel if we were to wantonly PUNISH this man without regard for gentlemanly codes of conduct."

Gulags my ass. When you stop being angry about this kind of shit, that's when you are ripe for takeover by a dictator. He knows you won't do anything to stop him.

One other point.. "A certain percentage of murderers who get out will murder again."

Actually, that is the point, isn't it?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

You want to see emotion? Try explaining this position to the mother of a baby whose body has been found buried in the woods with her skirt hiked up around her little neck. "Ma'am, I feel your pain, but we mustn't be too extreme. Take a deep breath and think about how badly we would all feel if we were to wantonly PUNISH this man without regard for gentlemanly codes of conduct."

That's why the family of the victim isn't involved in sentencing.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

You want to see emotion? Try explaining this position to the mother of a baby whose body has been found buried in the woods with her skirt hiked up around her little neck. "Ma'am, I feel your pain, but we mustn't be too extreme. Take a deep breath and think about how badly we would all feel if we were to wantonly PUNISH this man without regard for gentlemanly codes of conduct."

Gulags my ass. When you stop being angry about this kind of shit, that's when you are ripe for takeover by a dictator. He knows you won't do anything to stop him.

One other point.. "A certain percentage of murderers who get out will murder again."

Actually, that is the point, isn't it?

Thanks, Mr.Noodle...I feel the same way. We SHOULD be emotional over this kind of thing. When we stop being "emotional," we stop caring--at least until it happens to us. THEN we want "justice."


Catwoman: You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. I'm merely putting my opinion out here because I feel strongly about it. Welcome to Free America. If you don't like it, don't argue with it. I know how you feel, and you know how I feel. You're getting all flaky because I won't come around to your point of view. Not going to happen. I hold my beliefs as strongly as you hold yours, for reasons that, to me, are probably as strong as your reasons are to you. What makes you more right?

You are intent upon casting me as a "black or white" extremist, and that isn't the case, as you'd see if you'd read my earlier post. I'm not out there saying, "Screw the trial! Hang the bastard!" I'm merely saying that if the bastard is guilty, then hang him. Or let him come live with you. Either way suits me just fine.


Sidhe

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Unfortunately that is exactly how a decent society must work. The alternative is something akin to totalitarianism and Gulags. We have two choices. We try to do the best we can - or we take the Rush Limbaugh "they are evil so cut off their penises" attitude. The Rush Limbaugh solution was also called Stalinism.

Why only two? Who made that decision, you? I see at least one more and maybe there's more between the extremes you have decided are at issue.

Originally Posted by tw

You have no right to expect extreme protection. You only have the right to expect protection as best available - and still protect others rights. A percentage of all murders who get out will murder again. That is expected and cannot be avoided. So therefore we should fry all murders. I appreciate your fear. But life is about risk. Deal with the logic. Your fears are not relevant.

Oh stop it for God's sake. Of course her fears are relevant, everyones fears are relevant, that's why we have cops and jails. Nothing, repeat nothing, has a larger impact on quality of life than being able to allay those fears.

Originally Posted by tw

We do the best we can to minimize your risks. But that does not justify the frying of all murders, pedophiles or rapists. And yet with all the emotion in your post, that is exactly what you advocate. It is what happens when fear replaces logic.

And when logic replaces your assumtions, there are more solutions than the ones you've outlined. Your not going to win this one by creating an emotionally charged atmosphere of you're with me or your a rabid murderer. Not this time bro, any fool can see their are more than two options to this one. :p

[Catwoman]

*shrugs* I should have known better than attempt to engage in proper debate with you sidhe, we have "discussed" the death penalty before, and you didn't listen then either.

I like the Cellar because while many of us disagree, there is almost always an openness and honesty in discussion. With you, that doesn't exist. You come across as narrow minded, vicious, bitter and pretty fucked up.

If I'm wrong, don't respond with flames, show me it's not true.

[Kitsune]

It looks to me as if some more people have fallen victim to availability error and are freaking out over the endless national news stories about kidnappings, murders, etc. I'd really hate for the news to actually report the real number of children kidnapped and people murdered everyday. The short-sighted decisions made then might be disasterous.

Calm down, people. Sheesh.

Killing them fixes everything!

[jaguar]

So.....extreme emotional responses and over the top revenge are the correct answer?
'gentlemanly codes of conduct' as you so tritely put it are what separates us from savages.

[glatt]

On the one hand, on an intellectual and moral level, I believe the death penalty is wrong.

On the other hand, a sniper in my town a couple years ago victimized me and my family for a month or two. We stayed inside for a couple of months for fear of being shot. We were the lucky ones. They caught the sniper. Malvo, the asshole. You've probably heard of him. He's a kid. He's most likely insane. He's going to be put to death. I don't care.

On an intellectual level, I think he shouldn't be put to death, because it's not consistent with my beliefs. But in my gut, I don't care that he's going to die. I'm not looking forward to his death. I'd be equally happy if he spent the rest of his life in a maximum security mental facility or prison.

If I were called to be on a jury in his case, I would admit my bias and remove myself from the jury.

Similarly, I believe emotions have no place in an argument about whether the State should kill its citizens. That's a lynch mob mentality. We are better than that.

[mrnoodle]

depends on one's definitions of "extreme", "over the top", and "savage".

Someone who does something like that to a child should be subject to extreme justice, over-the-top measures to ensure he doesn't do it again, and savage consequences for repeat performances, yes. Gentlemanly codes of conduct work among gentlemen, but when the savages come to our place, they should be dealt with in kind.

I suppose it's best I don't hold public office, because I'm tired of the predators being handled with kid gloves and the prey lying out in the street forgotten. While we bicker over access to law books and cable TV for these bastards, the little kids are still DEAD.

[jaguar]

your semantics say it all really. What's 'extreme justice' ? Sounds like a polite way of saying cruel, sadastic revenge that sounds more palateable to me. Which makes you no better.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by jaguar

your semantics say it all really. What's 'extreme justice' ? Sounds like a polite way of saying cruel, sadastic revenge that sounds more palateable to me. Which makes you no better.

I can tell you what justice isn't: creating a system by which the predator of children is suddenly elevated to an untouchable status, where committing the most atrocious act possible on the most innocent of victims is a ticket to free health care, free boarding, internet access and a voluminous law library (and public servants) at your disposal. What a coup, to have a significant segment of the population believe that what you've done isn't evil (since there's no such thing), and to suddenly have the might of the ACLU at your back, daring "the man" to look at you crossways.

Cruel, sadistic revenge? Not at all. An end at the hands of a firing squad is multiple powers of magnitude MORE humane than what he did, and if he deserves any "respect," it's a quick end to his miserable poisonous existence, and not a whit more. That you, jaguar, would align yourself on the side of such monsters just so you can fly the philosophical banner of "fairness" is disgusting. I'm sure you're giddy with joy that the kid who was released from prison yesterday can once again live a normal life. Well, normal but for the fact that he seems to have a propensity for beating little girls into bloody rags by picking them up by the legs and dashing them against brick walls. But hey, a little couch time and he'll be right as rain.

If one of these people visited your home, you might feel differently. I shudder to think that you might not. After all, you can accuse people like me of cruelty and utterly turn your back on the victims of the world's most vile crimes. I'm sure Dahmer would've appreciated your support.

[OnyxCougar]

I have to admit I'm on LS's "side" here. Speaking as a family member of a murder victim, I say fry the bastards. Speaking as a victim of rape and child molestation, I say, fry the bastards.

Emotional? Of course. Logical? Yes. If we kill proven offenders, they will not repeat their crimes. That is as logical as it gets, people.

And those of you who are pro-choice and Anti-Death Penalty, I call hypocrite.

[Catwoman]

Thank you for your most rational and eloquent post to date. I mean that.

I really do understand your point. If you don't want the electric chair - don't murder! It's quite simple.

I think your style of writing sometimes comes across as bloodthirsty, and can suggest an appetite for brutal punishment and humiliation. If that is true (which I really hope it's not) this is the same intrinsic quality that leads a murderer to murder. An anger against something, a burning desire to hurt someone. Ok your reason is justified: they hurt someone else. But their anger is just as real to them.

In your last paragraph, I'm with you until the murder bit. I agree that IF reparation is to be conducted it should be on a like-for-like basis. I have the same 'show them how it feels' urge. But swiftly after that urge comes a rationalisation and humanity that would prevent me from condoning MORE pain and torture, no matter the crime of the perpetrator.

I think, on a wider scale, it is circular and self-perpetuating. I think harm to one person causes harm to the whole world. Punishing the harm-causer with more harm will only increase the net-negative.

[jaguar]

jesus fuck you got quite a beating with the stupid stick didn't you. I wasn't aware of a system that 'elevates predators of children to untouchable status', I was aware that many didn't live though their prison terms or if they did, were regularly victims of all sorts of crimes while inside and were often murdered or beaten after release.

The only thing I align myself with is due process and the criminal justice system over emotional lynch mobs and arbitary murder. When you start punishing people for crimes they haven't committed on the basis they may you start down a very slippery slope indeed. The same applies to punishing people outside the criminal justice system. But don't let that get in the way of ranting about the extreme cases.

So let me get this right. A 5 year old gets raped and murdered, her dismembered body gets found in a rubbish bag in a local park. Someone comes forward claiming they saw you in the area the night before. The media goes wild, someone else backs the claim up (silhouette looked about the same and hey, we all want to help find the evil kiddie fiddler right?), you say you were just walking your dog? Yea right, kiddie fiddler. Free legal aid? You're kidding, you're a vile evil scummy kiddiefiddler now and everyone knows it, into the cell for you and don't expect regular feeding while you're in there either. You're convicted, on the evidence of witnesses and under intense media pressure, Appeal? You've got to be kidding, you're gonna die next week, kiddie fiddler, get in the cell. Your arm got broken by a couple of cops on the way in? Tough luck, you fucking disgusting kiddie fiddler. It's what you deserve.

Is that how it should work? We have due process for a reason. It's a system built on centuries of development to create a process where justice, not revenge can be served in an environment that attempts to be as fair as possible.

If it happened to you, you might feel differently. I don't turn my back on the victims, i simply see the value of due process.

You love your emotive language, no wonder, without it your argument looks pretty fucking weak without it, the same emotive bullshit used to push any kind of irrational legislation, whether it be making sure that kids aren't runied for life by seeing tits on late night TV or taken away women's choice over their own bodies. Pretty fucking black and white for raped little girls, not so if the wrong guy gets accused.

Onxycougar - Lets keep on topic shall we, abortion is a whole other issue.

[mrnoodle]

I have not a violent bone in my body. I've never thrown the first punch, I've turned the other cheek more times than I care to count, and I haven't shot at anyone since 1989. If a bug is in the house, I'm more likely to catch it and release it outside than to stomp on it.

You can rob me, you can beat me up, you can set my car on fire, and I'll call 911 and let the flawed system run its course. But mess with my family or with kids in general and you opt out of the human race as far as I'm concerned. If anyone attempted rape or murder of my nephews, niece, parents or siblings, a prison term for me is a foregone conclusion, because the sonofabitch will not see another sunrise. I know that's wrong from the standpoint of my faith, and I know it's a foreign concept to many people who have never lived in an environment where the police were no more than 5 minutes away at any time.

But no, nobody could make me "mad" enough to do violence against them for anything other than self-defense. With the above caveat.