Anger Over Mohammed Cartoon - Page 6

Aliantha · 02-07-2006, 12:35 AM

It seems fairly obvious to me that no one likes their particular religion to be villified regardless of the intent; humorous or otherwise.

If Christian society wants to take the moral high ground and suggest that Islamic people who find these types of cartoons offensive are animals etc etc, then perhaps these 'morally right' individuals should excercise a little more understanding in their choice of cartoons.

As to the government of Denmark not apologizing for what has been printed in their paper under the grounds that it's not their responsibility, at that I scoff! Surely if a member of your country causes an international incident and seems likely to be the final catalyst to catastrophic events, then an apology to those who are offended surely is the least that could be offered. Apparently reactions to this have affected only 1.5% of Denmarks international trade. This may not seem like a high price to pay, but perhaps if the burden of that 1.5% falls on the shoulders of only a few companies, I'm sure the citizens of Denmark who have been effected financially would appreciate some understanding from their government...or the paper who printed the cartoons (which in my opinion were in poor taste and obviously meant to be inflamatory) at the least.

jaguar · 02-07-2006, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Muslims burned down a consulate on seeing a handful of comics, Christians burned down a theater with the release of a movie and beachgoers in Sydney went on roving patrols and attacked anyone who had a Middle Eastern appearance. Same shit, different day.

Steady the fuck on, that was nowhere near the same. Gangs of lebenese had been terrorising the beach for a long time and badly beat up two life guards. After the rally, where two lebenese were beaten up over 50 cars of lebenese shot and stabbed people and rioted.

MaggieL · 02-07-2006, 05:56 AM

Riddil · 02-07-2006, 08:49 AM

Kitsune, all your examples are valid, but one glaring difference in all your examples is the fact that you're comparing mass demonstrations to the actions of a few individuals, or at best small groups. Even the IRA was little more than a band of insurgents. And they were fighting for what they felt was an occupation, and lack of representation. Not against a cartoon. Published in another country.

Religious zealots have absolutely done crazy things in both Islam and Christianity. But you can't call the the two equal. One has crazy people that go to the extreme of the religion. The other has built a power structure designed to keep people in the dark and whip the entire faith into a holy frenzy. The religion of Islam may be peaceful. But the organization is anything but.

Anyhow, the muslims will learn. They'll catch on to the absurdity of extremism... eventually. The problem that the western world is having is that we expect the Middle East to suddenly wake up and join the modern world. They *can't*. Culture doesn't just change overnight.

If anyone wants a comical view of what reads like a prophecy for modern day American efforts in the middle east, just go and read Mark Twain's book, "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court." The parallel's are astounding.

tw · 02-07-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddil

Anyhow, the muslims will learn. They'll catch on to the absurdity of extremism... eventually. The problem that the western world is having is that we expect the Middle East to suddenly wake up and join the modern world. They *can't*. Culture doesn't just change overnight.

Unfortunately, what the Muslim world is learning is that those comics and George Jr's 'preemption policies' are, to them, part of an attack on Islam. More amazing is how many Americans deny that Muslims have this opinion.

Don't fool yourself for one minute. The United States will eventually attack Iran. Iran knows it which is why they are building nuclear bombs as fast as they can. Islamic people suspect (or know because radical Inman preach it) that the United States will continue to force changes on their society - against their will. George Jr has all but said we will force democracy on those people. Do you think for one minute that these people will welcome anything associated with George Jr? Of course not. Democracy only happens when people first want it. Democracy fails when it is forced upon those people. Need we cite Haiti as a prime example? Or Vietnam? Need we also know how many American policies were changed by George Jr to Israel's advantage with preceived contempt of the PLO?

You may view reform and enlightenment as something that Muslims will eventually learn. I see a slowly growing instability that includes possible nuclear war - complete with radical factors on both side that foster hate. All this was completely avoidable had we stayed with a fundamentally simple and well proven concept called containment. In containment, the local powers fight among themselves to eventually learn god's laws (called science - not called religion). Because of containment, the United States was once highly regarded by 70% of the world. Those people must earn, appreciate, and demand better government (maybe democracy). This cannot happen when preemption forces it upon them. Instead, western powers under pressure from George Jr are slowly coalescing a Muslim hate of westerners. Do you think for one momemt that Iraqis welcome Americans in Iraq? Only the naive preach that lie.

It is a well proven lesson of history. Democracy cannot be imposed. Furthermore, if we try to impose our ways on others - called preemption - those others may instead unite to oppose us. Norwegian troops in Afghanistan were just attacked yesterday over this event. Syrians went on the march attempting to firebomb the Danish embassy. Western embassies in Tehran were attacked. A flurry of right wing Islamic bills that once had little chance of becoming law will probably become law this month in Indonesia. Due to George Jr's righteous preemption policies, then the enemies of logical (secular) thought are uniting. And yes, all this is even making bin Laden look more popular even to some intellectuals. Based upon America's actions this past six years, what bin Laden said has more credibility. United against the comics are chants that include references against George Jr - and against a nation that was once viewed with honor and respect by 70% of the world.

Remember, Iran was once a country with a large reform movement - to remove the burden of Islamic fundamentalism. George Jr almost single handedly destroyed that movement with his myopic 'axis of evil' speech. Did you see how dangerous that speech was when he made it? It not, then ask yourself how many other lessons of history were not comprehended. George Jr all but declared war upon the Iranian people- it should have been that obvious back then to educated Americans. Those comics are but another little piece of a big puzzle that will become religious inspired wars.

And you thought we learned from history - the Thirty Years War, Arab-Israeli conflicts, the Crusades. Apparently not. Once religion becomes anything more than a relationship between one and his god, then hate and violence is promoted by all sides. The United States literally Pearl Harbored another nation - and yet many Americans still don't call that evil or wrong? Just another fact that suggests things will only get worse. Then too many on both sides will start thinking more like Urbane Guerrilla. It will then take massive death and destruction to restore sanity.

keryx · 02-07-2006, 12:43 PM

US attack Iran? Don't we still owe them an ass-kickin' for the US Embassy hostage event?

Who was president during that fiasco?

Truth is, Iran has more to fear from Israel. Superior training and superior equipment, and they are not afraid to use it.

At least, that's what history taught us.

wolf · 02-07-2006, 01:05 PM

The originals, plus some new ones, as well as a sampling of comics from the Islamic World.

Make sure you check out Mullahbert.

Riddil · 02-07-2006, 04:36 PM

Which is the next thing that the US needs to learn... when people don't like you the very last thing you want to do is get in everyone's faces and try to impose your will.

It's sad to say it... but there's actually a big similarity between modern day politics and internet forums. It's all changed b/c global media / communications has created a new-found globally aware perspective. To see the similarities just take a look at the modern forum... if someone is well respected, in a position of power, and out-spoken then there's no end to the string of forum trolls that do everything they can to knock the king-of-the-hill off his perch.

The lesson the world needs to learn is you *can't* win against the trolls. There's only two solutions: you either have to own the forum so you can ban on a whim (a la Something Awful), or you just have to keep a low profile. The US can't own the whole world, and we're doing a god-awful job of keeping a low profile. The idea of "keeping a low profile" is why I really like the motto, "walk softly and carry a big stick." Unfortunately our mantra now reads more like "stomp loudly and use a stick on people who complain". You're not going to make many friends that way.

The Muslim nation *will* change for the better, they *will* grow up. Eventually. They'll get smarter, more globally aware... eventually. Will it be before we have a nuke-u-lar war? That I don't know. I hope not, but right now the odds aren't looking too good.

Happy Monkey · 02-07-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddil

Will it be before we have a nuke-u-lar war? That I don't know. I hope not, but right now the odds aren't looking too good.

You hope so, I hope.

be-bop · 02-07-2006, 06:38 PM

Following on from what has been said earlier all I can say to this news report I hope this is the first of many..Appears also that one of the guys caught in the press pictures in the London demonstration wearing mock explosives in the guise of a suicide bomber was a convicted drug pusher.He has broke parole conditions and has been sent back to prison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm

Troubleshooter · 02-07-2006, 07:43 PM

U.K. calls for cartoon protest arrests

http://www.upi.com/InternationalInte...6-072249-6608r

...snip...

A man who dressed as a suicide bomber for the demonstration apologized for his behavior, which he acknowledged had deeply offended the families of the July 7 victims.

Omar Khayam, 22, said he had dressed that way to make the point the right to free speech did not include the right to offend.

"But by me dressing the way I did, I did just that, exactly the same as the Danish newspaper, if not worse," he said in a statement.

Aliantha · 02-07-2006, 07:57 PM

Just a fact for some here who seem to think that Christianity or Christian society is in any way going to 'teach Muslims a lesson' or 'force them to grow up', or any of the other suggestions made here in this thread; In case you're not aware, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and already makes Christianity a minority (even Buddists and Hindus outnumber Christians), so while you're sitting there with all your wealth, ask yourself how much good it'll do you if you continue to antagonize the majority.

Undertoad · 02-07-2006, 07:59 PM

via adherents

xoxoxoBruce · 02-07-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

ask yourself how much good it'll do you if you continue to antagonize the majority

Are you serious? Thats one of the cornerstones of the American Way(tm).

02-07-2006, 08:16 PM

The antics of JC's followers in 2005, a round up from Harper's Magazine:

2005 Jan 11 It was announced that no one may carry a cross along the 2005 inaugural parade route.[The News-Herald]»

Jan 21 A cartoonist was sentenced by a Greek court to six months in prison for depicting Jesus as a pot-smoking hippie.»[Ananova]

Feb 14 The last witness to the miraculous appearance of the Virgin Mary at Fatima died, and[The Daily Telegraph]»

Mar 20 Seventy-eight percent of Americans believe that Christ rose from the dead.[Newsweek]»

Apr 17 One-foot-tall talking Jesus, David, Mary, and Moses dolls will be sold in June.[Messengers of Faith]»

Apr 22 A Fresno, California, man was standing trial for killing nine of his children, seven of whom he fathered with his own daughters and nieces. “Jesus was a womanizer,” he explained.[CourtTV.com]»

Jun 18 A nun in Romania, undergoing exorcism, died after she was tied to a cross, gagged, and left alone for three days in a cold room. “I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this,” said the priest who organized the exorcism.[BBC News]»

Aug 9 In Jerusalem the biblical Pool of Siloam, where Jesus cured a blind man, was discovered by sewer workers.[Post-Gazette.com]»

Oct 6 The Catholic Church of Scotland published a guide to the Bible stating that the account of creation in the book of Genesis is “symbolic.” The virgin birth of Jesus, however, is still considered to be fact.[The Scotsman]»

Dec 6 A Funyun shaped like the Virgin Mary cradling the baby Jesus sold online for $609.[The Miami Herald]»

Dec 19 For the second time this year, someone stole the life-sized Jesus from a nativity scene in Cincinnati, Ohio, although this time they left behind baby Jesus's leg.[The Canton Rep]»

At least Christian Fundamentalists haven't burned down a foreign embassy - yet! Oh, except for the ones in Baghdad at the beginning of the war and those don't count. The Bible tells me so.

02-07-2006, 12:35 AM	#76
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	It seems fairly obvious to me that no one likes their particular religion to be villified regardless of the intent; humorous or otherwise. If Christian society wants to take the moral high ground and suggest that Islamic people who find these types of cartoons offensive are animals etc etc, then perhaps these 'morally right' individuals should excercise a little more understanding in their choice of cartoons. As to the government of Denmark not apologizing for what has been printed in their paper under the grounds that it's not their responsibility, at that I scoff! Surely if a member of your country causes an international incident and seems likely to be the final catalyst to catastrophic events, then an apology to those who are offended surely is the least that could be offered. Apparently reactions to this have affected only 1.5% of Denmarks international trade. This may not seem like a high price to pay, but perhaps if the burden of that 1.5% falls on the shoulders of only a few companies, I'm sure the citizens of Denmark who have been effected financially would appreciate some understanding from their government...or the paper who printed the cartoons (which in my opinion were in poor taste and obviously meant to be inflamatory) at the least. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-07-2006, 05:56 AM	#78
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	__________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

02-07-2006, 08:49 AM	#79
Riddil Management Consultant Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 165	Kitsune, all your examples are valid, but one glaring difference in all your examples is the fact that you're comparing mass demonstrations to the actions of a few individuals, or at best small groups. Even the IRA was little more than a band of insurgents. And they were fighting for what they felt was an occupation, and lack of representation. Not against a cartoon. Published in another country. Religious zealots have absolutely done crazy things in both Islam and Christianity. But you can't call the the two equal. One has crazy people that go to the extreme of the religion. The other has built a power structure designed to keep people in the dark and whip the entire faith into a holy frenzy. The religion of Islam may be peaceful. But the organization is anything but. Anyhow, the muslims will learn. They'll catch on to the absurdity of extremism... eventually. The problem that the western world is having is that we expect the Middle East to suddenly wake up and join the modern world. They can't. Culture doesn't just change overnight. If anyone wants a comical view of what reads like a prophecy for modern day American efforts in the middle east, just go and read Mark Twain's book, "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court." The parallel's are astounding. __________________ He who dares, wins, my son. He who dares! - SAS Boredom: the desire for desires. - Tolstoy

02-07-2006, 12:43 PM	#81
keryx Mrs. Fargon Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: La Crosse, WI Posts: 85	US attack Iran? Don't we still owe them an ass-kickin' for the US Embassy hostage event? Who was president during that fiasco? Truth is, Iran has more to fear from Israel. Superior training and superior equipment, and they are not afraid to use it. At least, that's what history taught us. __________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

02-07-2006, 01:05 PM	#82
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	The originals, plus some new ones, as well as a sampling of comics from the Islamic World. Make sure you check out Mullahbert. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-07-2006, 04:36 PM	#83
Riddil Management Consultant Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 165	Which is the next thing that the US needs to learn... when people don't like you the very last thing you want to do is get in everyone's faces and try to impose your will. It's sad to say it... but there's actually a big similarity between modern day politics and internet forums. It's all changed b/c global media / communications has created a new-found globally aware perspective. To see the similarities just take a look at the modern forum... if someone is well respected, in a position of power, and out-spoken then there's no end to the string of forum trolls that do everything they can to knock the king-of-the-hill off his perch. The lesson the world needs to learn is you can't win against the trolls. There's only two solutions: you either have to own the forum so you can ban on a whim (a la Something Awful), or you just have to keep a low profile. The US can't own the whole world, and we're doing a god-awful job of keeping a low profile. The idea of "keeping a low profile" is why I really like the motto, "walk softly and carry a big stick." Unfortunately our mantra now reads more like "stomp loudly and use a stick on people who complain". You're not going to make many friends that way. The Muslim nation will change for the better, they will grow up. Eventually. They'll get smarter, more globally aware... eventually. Will it be before we have a nuke-u-lar war? That I don't know. I hope not, but right now the odds aren't looking too good. __________________ He who dares, wins, my son. He who dares! - SAS Boredom: the desire for desires. - Tolstoy

02-07-2006, 06:38 PM	#85
be-bop Operations Operative Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: scotland/uk Posts: 664	Following on from what has been said earlier all I can say to this news report I hope this is the first of many..Appears also that one of the guys caught in the press pictures in the London demonstration wearing mock explosives in the guise of a suicide bomber was a convicted drug pusher.He has broke parole conditions and has been sent back to prison. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm

02-07-2006, 07:43 PM	#86
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	U.K. calls for cartoon protest arrests http://www.upi.com/InternationalInte...6-072249-6608r ...snip... A man who dressed as a suicide bomber for the demonstration apologized for his behavior, which he acknowledged had deeply offended the families of the July 7 victims. Omar Khayam, 22, said he had dressed that way to make the point the right to free speech did not include the right to offend. "But by me dressing the way I did, I did just that, exactly the same as the Danish newspaper, if not worse," he said in a statement. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

02-07-2006, 07:57 PM	#87
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Just a fact for some here who seem to think that Christianity or Christian society is in any way going to 'teach Muslims a lesson' or 'force them to grow up', or any of the other suggestions made here in this thread; In case you're not aware, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and already makes Christianity a minority (even Buddists and Hindus outnumber Christians), so while you're sitting there with all your wealth, ask yourself how much good it'll do you if you continue to antagonize the majority. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-07-2006, 07:59 PM	#88
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	via adherents

02-07-2006, 08:16 PM	#90
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	The antics of JC's followers in 2005, a round up from Harper's Magazine: 2005 Jan 11 It was announced that no one may carry a cross along the 2005 inaugural parade route.[The News-Herald]» Jan 21 A cartoonist was sentenced by a Greek court to six months in prison for depicting Jesus as a pot-smoking hippie.»[Ananova] Feb 14 The last witness to the miraculous appearance of the Virgin Mary at Fatima died, and[The Daily Telegraph]» Mar 20 Seventy-eight percent of Americans believe that Christ rose from the dead.[Newsweek]» Apr 17 One-foot-tall talking Jesus, David, Mary, and Moses dolls will be sold in June.[Messengers of Faith]» Apr 22 A Fresno, California, man was standing trial for killing nine of his children, seven of whom he fathered with his own daughters and nieces. “Jesus was a womanizer,” he explained.[CourtTV.com]» Jun 18 A nun in Romania, undergoing exorcism, died after she was tied to a cross, gagged, and left alone for three days in a cold room. “I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this,” said the priest who organized the exorcism.[BBC News]» Aug 9 In Jerusalem the biblical Pool of Siloam, where Jesus cured a blind man, was discovered by sewer workers.[Post-Gazette.com]» Oct 6 The Catholic Church of Scotland published a guide to the Bible stating that the account of creation in the book of Genesis is “symbolic.” The virgin birth of Jesus, however, is still considered to be fact.[The Scotsman]» Dec 6 A Funyun shaped like the Virgin Mary cradling the baby Jesus sold online for $609.[The Miami Herald]» Dec 19 For the second time this year, someone stole the life-sized Jesus from a nativity scene in Cincinnati, Ohio, although this time they left behind baby Jesus's leg.[The Canton Rep]» At least Christian Fundamentalists haven't burned down a foreign embassy - yet! Oh, except for the ones in Baghdad at the beginning of the war and those don't count. The Bible tells me so.

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