To the darling slaves of psycho-babble .

[Rock Steady]

Originally Posted by Jabbly

interestingly in primary school, the only place where grammar seems to matter these days, i was taught to NEVER use a comma before 'and'. i always feel rebellious if i write 'red, white, and blue' and it always looks wrong to me...

Yes, it looks wrong to me too. But, if Associated Press writes it that way, that becomes the standard.

I think it is really stupid. But, I do not stand in the way of a 100 year old company that writes 80% of the nation's news. That would be foolish.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Rock Steady

But, if Associated Press writes it that way, that becomes the standard.

Punctuation is, and has always been, a printer's convention.

[bbro]

Originally Posted by Jabbly

interestingly in primary school, the only place where grammar seems to matter these days, i was taught to NEVER use a comma before 'and'. i always feel rebellious if i write 'red, white, and blue' and it always looks wrong to me...

I was taught the opposite. I always had to put the comma in the list. It was never optional for me. The only way there wasn't a comma is if there were only two items in the list. I am so used to the comma before the "and" that I don't think I would do it any other way.

[Maui Nick]

Originally Posted by Buddug

Hello

I have decided to write a general message , as many of my answers dovetail into this one .

It would be unreasonable of me to expect you to read everything written by Shakespeare . It is totally reasonable of me to ask you to read Don Quijote de La Mancha however ( 1605 for the first part , 1615 for the second part ). The English translation is easily available , and for the true ignoramii , do not forget that the author is Cervantes . This book will help you to explore the idea of madness and sanity . There is no better book on the subject . And you are not told what to think . You are free to think .

Read great literature instead of immersing yourself in the self-indulgent psycho-babble peddled by quacks .

And never forget that there will never be any answers , ever .

It is totally reasonable of me to ask you to learn to use punctuation properly, rather than put an extraneous space in front of each period and comma. It is also totally reasonable of me to ask you to take your "required reading directive" and naff off.

I read what I choose to read. Of late, that has included several of David Weber's novels, Game Of Shadows and a biography of Teddy Roosevelt.

(The plural of ignoramus is political party. Good "entrail" pun. And Jabbly is right: Don't put a comma before "and" in a list.)

[Flint]

The Oxford Comma is completely debatable. Some use it, some don't.

[Shawnee123]

Source: U of NC.edu

5. X,Y, and Z
Put commas between items in a list. When giving a short and simple list of things in a sentence, the last comma (right before the conjunction–usually and or or) is optional, but it is never wrong. If the items in the list are longer and more complicated, you should always place a final comma before the conjunction.

EITHER: You can buy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.
OR: You can buy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in Los Angeles.

BUT ALWAYS: A good student listens to his teachers without yawning, reads once in a while, and writes papers before they are due.
So, as stated, commas are optional in a list and it is correct to do either (of course depending on source.) I just think it makes more sense: Verbally "You can buy life...libertyandthepursuitofhappiness in Los Angeles." Why set libertyandthepursuitofhappiness apart from life as if it is a single entity?

Just my humble op!

[Maui Nick]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

To me, not having the final comma makes it look like the last two elements are a part of a whole. A more illustrative example of this might be something like: "An airplane, a spaceship, cars, and trucks." To write it "an airplane, a spaceship, cars and trucks" sets cars and trucks as a part of a whole i.e. cars and trucks as land-roving vehicles.

Stop and say it out loud, pausing everytime you hit a comma.

Now you see why the comma before "and" is inappropriate. The best writing is conversational, not stilted and formal.

Regarding the "one spaces or two after a sentence rule" discussion ... as somebody already noted, using the "justify" command in your word processor makes that particular "rule" superfluous. Any teacher trying to deduct points for it in the PC era is being a bit too picky, obsessing with minor style details while not paying attention to the message itself.

[Maui Nick]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Hmmph. Given how accurate they seem to be in other realms I surely wouldn't worship anything AP says. Consider cross-checking with the Chicago Manual and the Holt Handbook before gainsaying Strunk and White.

The AP goes out of its way to ensure accuracy and issues prompt and accurate corrections when it's wrong (which puts it several orders of magnitude above, say, Bill O'Reilly). Frequently, two or three versions of one story move in the same news cycle to ensure that the information the AP is correct; 99 times out of 100, corrections deal with minor style mistakes and/or misspellings rather than factuality. The chief exception to this is the sports wire; it tends to be more bleeding-edge in terms of the information going out because of AP members' final deadlines, which in the Eastern Time Zone fall within 90 minutes of the end of prime-time games. Unfortunately for my stress level in my former job, official scorers have a habit of changing their decisions at the last minute (and usually less than two minutes after I had sent my last page off to the plate burner in the pressroom ).

An out-and-out KILL signal for a grossly inaccurate story is rarely sent and rarely has to be. I haven't seen any for that reason in over two years; the last KILL orders I have seen were for outdated stories that moved on a previous day which were accidentally resent despite being outdated.

AP style is neat, clean and consistent. It's focused more on delievering the message than it is with miscellaneous style points. It's also what many kids are becoming used to; because most website news is AP, the AP's brand of style will be what those kids see more than anything else.

Disclaimer: I never worked at the AP, but I have many professional colleagues who do work there.

[Brooke of the Land]

Personally, I learned that a comma is optional before and (though I always use one), there is one space after a comma or semicolon, and two spaces after a period.

On the other hand, my fiance does not use a comma before the last item in a list, and only puts one space after a period.

We grew up in the same area of Texas. Who decided that we were going to learn two completely different things? And why are both acceptable if one is supposed to be "right" over the other?

Although I have had one tiny little conversation about this debate, I really think I've got much bigger things to worry about right now. Just don't tell me the way I'm doing it is wrong, and everything will be fine.