"We have foiled mass murder on an unimaginable scale"

[headsplice]

Collateral damage in the war on Moisture
RyanAir's repsonse to increased security measures (a.k.a., security theatre)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

Still waiting for that al Qaeda attack on the Prudential Building in Newark NJ. Oh. Information on that attack was obtained by torture in Guantanamo. Torture is so acceptable and obtains such reliable information that we went to Orange Alert. Clearly the Prudential Building will be attacked. After call, credibility is George Jr.

Right area, wrong building, it will be a little closer to the water. A nondescript chlorine manufacturing plant.

[depmats]

Any country engaged in the current 'Crusade' has made themselves a target by their involvement.

No, any country guilty of existing has made themselves a target. The US and UK have not been the only nations targeted by terrorists and not all nations targeted have been standing shoulder to shoulder with us.

[tw]

Originally Posted by depmats

The US and UK have not been the only nations targeted by terrorists and not all nations targeted have been standing shoulder to shoulder with us.

Examples? Supporting facts? Details that would also put that post into a perspective that was intended.

[xoxoxoBruce]

In March 1992, Muslims attack and kill an Archpriest, a Monk, and three laypersons at the St. Mary’s Monastery, El-Mouharak, Asyut.

In October 1992, Islamics attack, destroy and loot homes in El-Qousya, Asyut.

In February 1993,a Cairo café attack slew three via bomb.

In June 1993, Islamics ambush UN peacekeeping personnel, killing 23.

In December 1994, an Islamic bomb on Philippine Airlines Flight 434 killed Haruki Ikegami, Japanese businessman.
In that same month, Armed Islamic Group took hold of Air France Flight to Algeria.

In November 1995a suicide bomber killed 16 at the Egyptian Embassy, Islamabad, Pakistan.

In February 1996, Muslims in Egypt took a Coptic village, leveling homes, animal, crops and fields.

In August 1996, French Archbishop of Oran’s home was bombed, slaying him and his chauffeur. The Algerian Armed Islamic Group did it.

In December 1996, a Paris subway train was exploded, killing four, wounding 86.

In February 1997, a dozen Coptic Christians are killed while worship in their Abu Quorcas church.

In November 199758 were slain by murderers at the Hatshepsut’s Temple, Egypt.

In October 2001, Muslim murderers slay worshipers in Tomata Indonesian church
In the same month, Muslim killers shoot into church, slaying 18, in Bahawalpur, Model Town, Pakistan.

In December 2001, Muslim murderers slay Christian community, killing five, in Vwang, Nigeria.

In February 2002, worshipers in a Coptic Church in Egypt were set afire.
In that same month, three Christians were murdered by Islamics in Ilorin, Nigeria.
In that same month in Amman, Jordan, a vehicle was blown apart via car bomb, slaying an Egyptian and Iraqi laborer. The car was owned by the wife of the head of the Jordanian Anti-Terrorism Unit.

In March 2002 in Islamabad Pakistan, five are slain via grenade in a church. Forty-seven are wounded.

In April 2002 in Tunisia, Islamic suicide bombers kills 26 in historic synagogue. Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites says they did it.
In the same month, Muslim killers slay twelve worshipers in a Christian village, leaving six wounded.

In May 2002 in Pakistan, a bus exploded, murdering 12 and wounding 19. Al-Qaida was suspected.
In the same month in Kapiisk, Russia, Muslim murderers set loose a bomb in the bushes that slew 42, wounding 150 others. Islamic al-Qaida suspected.

In June 2002, Islamic killers fired into a Neelum Valley, Pakistani bus, forcing it over a cliff, killing 10 persons, injuring 12 others.

In July 2002, grenades thrown into tourists in Mansebra.

In August 2002, six missionaries taken, two beheaded, in the Philippines. In Jhika Gali, Murree, Pakistan, at a Christian missionary school six are slain and four wounded in Islamic murdering attack against believers.

In August 2002, Kabul Afghanistan witnesses bomb explosion outside UN guesthouse, two wounded. Muslim killers suspected.

In September 2002 in Ahmedabad India, Muslims attack and slay Hindu monks and dozens of worshipers in a temple. Lashkar-e-Toiba takes responsibility.

In October 2002 in Dhabbah, Yemen, explosives kill one and wound four on French oil tanker Limburg.

In October 2002 in Bali, 187 tourists are slain by Muslim murderers at San Club on Legian Street. Al-Qaida told press they did it.

In November 2002 in Mombaasa Kenya, 15 killed by suicide bomber, 40 wounded. Al-Ittihad suspected.
In the same month in Mombasa Kenya, two SA-7 Strela antiaircraft missiles were launched but missed downing a Arkia Boeing 757. Al-Qaida, the Government of Universal Palestine in Exile, and the Army of Palestine claimed they did it.

In December 2002 in Makassar Indonesia, McDonald’s restaurant is exploded via bomb, 3 killed, 11 wounded. Laskar Jundullah did it.

In December 2002, three worshipers are slain and fourteen wounded in church in Daska Pakistan. Muslims are suspected.

In February 2003, Muslims kill fourteen and wound 8 worshipers in Christian village in Philippines.

In March 2003 in Mindanao, Philippines, a bus is attacked by Moro Islamic Liberation Front, killing nine and injuring four.

In April 2003 in Davao Philippines, a bomb kills 15 and wounds 55. Jemaah Islamiyah is responsible.

In May 2003, suicide bombers storm a residential complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, leaving 35 dead, wounding 200. Al-Qaeda suspected.

In May 2003, bomb attacks in Casablanca fly into restaurant, hotel, Jewish cemetery, Jewish Community Center and Belgian Consulate, leaving 33 dead and 101 wounded. Salfiya Jihadiya suspected.

In July 2003, a Catholic priest in Ranala Kot, Pakistan, was shot and slain in his home. Muslim "fundamentalists" are said to have done it.

In August 2003, Jakarta, Indonesia, Marriott hotel is bombed, killing 10, wounding 150. Jemaah Islamiyah suspected.

In January 2004 in Marathiwat, Thailand, Islamic killers stormed an armory, setting it on fire as well as burning 18 schools, leaving four dead and an unknown number wounded.

In February 2004, In the same month, Muslim murderers slay 49 farming community laborers in Nigeria. They had taken refuge in a church.

In the same month in Manveles, Philippines, Abu Sayyaf’s group bombed a ferry, killing 200.

In May 2004 In the same month, 11 Christians were burnt alive by Islamics in two churches in Nigeria.
In the same month, in Ambon, Indonesia, bombs kill one and injure 13 in a Christian neighborhood. Another bomb goes off near a church.
In the same month in Barentu Nrritrea, seven are slain and 80 wounded by bomb blast.
In the same month in Pattani Thailand, Islamics kidnap Buddhist civilian, then behead him.
In the same month in Turbat Pakistan, Islamics kill a 14-year-old boy and dozens are injured in a rocket attack against the Minister of Education.

In June 2004, Zainapora India, Lashkar-e-Toiba murders kidnap two, later slitting their throats.

In July 2004 in Jakarta Indonesia, a priest was slain and four wounded when gunmen attacked their church. It was near the site where over 2000 Christians have been slain by Muslims.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Brianna

When radical muslims say they hate the West they mean YOU, too. YOU. you all live in a world where Muslims hate only the US.

Then finish her incomplete thought. When radical Muslims say they hate, they hate the north, the south, the east, and the west. They hate anything that does not conform to strict Muslim teachings. So what was Brianna's point? To encourage fear? To advocate war and torture? To blame only Muslims for death, murder, and arson? This justifies UG advocated totalitarianism. Clearly we should be arresting and torturing more Muslims just so Brianna feels safer in an airliner.

In this case, bomb making equipment was found hidden. In this case, a terrorist plot was probably uncovered. A plot by Britains against Britains. A plot in the same vein as Timothy McVey and Egyptians who assassinated Sadat. A risk one inherits if one wants a free and open society. Sometimes terrorism succeeds. That justifies totalitarism?

As depmats noted and as xoxoxoBruce demonstrates with examples, it happens. It rarely happens but it happens. It is attempted more frequently against countries that foolishly try to impose will and order when peace and order is not yet wanted. Does that mean we should suspect every Muslim as Brianna advocates? We imprisoned and tortured about 700 Muslims in violation of American principles. Only 8 and maybe 40 were dangerous. Is this what Brianna advocates only because some terrorism is normal in society – as xoxoxoBruce demonstrates by example? Sorry. For an open society to exist, Brianna and everyone else must be at risk. A risk that approaches zero. A risk that does not justify totalitarianisms advocated by UG.

Still waiting for that al Qaeda attack on the Prudential Building in Newark NJ (because, in such fear, we tortured in Guantanamo and Abu Ghriad).

[9th Engineer]

tw, even though we do run a risk of terrorism by running our society the way we do it we would be fools to just roll over and explain away the slaughtering of innocents as 'collateral damage'. There is a cohesive group performing these attacks, all muslims are not looking to destroy western civilization, but the people who ARE are overwhelmingly muslim. The unwillingness of muslim sects in the affected countries to condemn extremest groups is what has largely destroyed their reputations since it denotes tollerence of their actions.

What would you have us do? The attacks must stop, so how do you propose to root out the perpetrators with minimal collateral damage? I suppose one idea would be a psychological campain aimed at shaming anyone even remotely associated with the extremests. Force people to cut their ties and sever their support chains of sympathizers by promoting the attitude that the extremests and anyone who supports them are absolute, complete scum. People start to notice when others cross the street to avoid passing them on the sidewalk.

[Trilby]

I didn't read tw's post (I never do) but I did catch my name in there as I rolled my eyes in a downward motion to the next post.


I think tw likes me.

[tw]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

tw, even though we do run a risk of terrorism by running our society the way we do it we would be fools to just roll over and explain away the slaughtering of innocents as 'collateral damage'.

As I expected, someone would completely misinterpret what I posted into the extreme. Let's take the obvious example: 11 September. At least four FBI teams were on the trail of 9/11 highjackers. In each case, superiors blocked those FBI investigations. As a result, 3000 people died. Why then should we turn the US into a totalitarian society as UG advocates.

Notice what I said we don't need - a totalitarian society. Why then do you post as if I said all FBI and other police units should be restricted from investigating crimes? Why do you post in response to something I did not say? Why do you post to something that is completely contrary to every one of my posts for a past 10 years?

What would you have us do?

Put back laws the existed in 2000 AND replace inferior management in places such as the FBI with people who come from where the work gets done. Another classic example of "85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management".

The president is told, "A second plane has just hit the World Trade Center. America is under attack." So what does he do? He sits for 15 minutes reading a children's book. We don't need totalitarianisms. We did not need more bureaucracy - Fatherland Security. We did not need more laws - Patriot Act. We needed people who would not stifle four FBI investigations into the 9/11 highjackers before highjackers could even get into planes.

Our top people so lied as to proclaim no one suspected terrorists would crash planes into buildings. And yet five years previously, even a best selling novel from Tom Clancy did that in Chapter One. Years previously, highjackers tried to do same to crash an airliner into the Eiffel Tower. Two famous examples of terrorists crashing planes into buildings and our leaders did not know? This is called competance - or preaching the president's spin? Our leaders lied to us and we did not fire them for saying, "no one suspected terrorists could crash planes into buildings". Instead we let them create many more layers of bureaucracy: Office of Fatherland Security.

The naive would advocate totalitarian and draconian laws when previous laws were more than sufficient. This so that we forget what George Jr, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jane Garvey, etc all did on 11 September. They did nothing.

[Undertoad]

Can you answer the question "What would you have us do" without altering history, preventing elections, or denying the general public the vote?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can you answer the question "What would you have us do" without altering history, preventing elections, or denying the general public the vote?

"85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management." In law enforcement - especially in the FBI and among their bosses - top management is reason for repeated failures.

Look back at history. Translators that have work erased just to slow down operations. Translator is even the girlfriend of the suspect whose conversations are being translated. The whistle blower Sibel Edmonds was instead fired. An FBI regarded with such suspicion (and justifiablely so) that people with skills (such as Arabic speakers) will not apply for jobs that are desperately needed. A crime lab that routinely mishandled evidence. Robert P. Hanssen who investigates spying is a Russian spy for decades. FBI agents do not even have access to computers found in most all homes - cannot even send e-mail from work. Colleen Rowley was named the “Time” person of the year when she went from F.B.I informant to F.B.I. whistleblower. This nation's #1 anti-terrorist investigator force out of a job only for political reasons. FBI has virtually no useful computer system. The SAIC replacement does not work because of top FBI mismanagement and will be scrapped after spending $170 million on an open ended project. It even suggests that Ruby Ridge and Oglala Lakota Pine Ridge events may need be reexamined.

So what did we do? We put the FBI beneath a man who advocates torture.

What would you have us do? Amazing that I should answer that question again especially when FBI top management incompetance has been reported in waves.

Originally Posted by tw

Put back laws the existed in 2000 AND replace inferior management in places such as the FBI with people who come from where the work gets done.

[Undertoad]

So, "No" would be a simpler and just as accurate answer to my question.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So, "No" would be a simpler and just as accurate answer to my question.

No is what a mental midget might answer. "No" obviously does not answer "What would you have us do".

If you were joking, well, "Hah, hah".

[Undertoad]

Alright. Alright. The solution is to elect the right people. Fair enough. Agreed, even.

Making any contingency plans, in case that doesn't work out?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Alright. Alright. The solution is to elect the right people. Fair enough. Agreed, even.

Making any contingency plans, in case that doesn't work out?

And so we made contigency plans: a secure court to handle emergency wiretapping situations that require judicial review. And yet even that legal principle (judicial review) was violated by a president who should be considered for impeachment. Impeachment - just another law already existing in the Constitution.