S3930 - Detainee bill

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Indefinite detention in prison as guilty until proven innocent under secret evidence without the ability to consult a lawyer? Worries me. A lot.

It would me too, if you are an American citizen who is subsequently subject to the Constitution. Non-citizens have no claim to the US Constitution under any circumstances.

[piercehawkeye45]

Merc, what is happening is that the US put out bounties for "Al Qaeda" members and then people would tip off the Americans about innocent people just to receive the money. Those innocent people were tortured while the US knew they were innocent but were too prideful to let them go and admit their huge mistake.

That shouldn't be a scary thing directed at you. It should be a scary thing that your country would do something like that.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Non-citizens have no claim to the US Constitution under any circumstances.

They still have every claim to be protected under Habeas Corpus and the Geneva Convention.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Merc, what is happening is that the US put out bounties for "Al Qaeda" members and then people would tip off the Americans about innocent people just to receive the money. Those innocent people were tortured while the US knew they were innocent but were too prideful to let them go and admit their huge mistake.

That shouldn't be a scary thing directed at you. It should be a scary thing that your country would do something like that.

Look I understand that early on, mistakes were made. Many people I personally know have said so. Those mistakes cannot be undone. On the other hand, it did not take long for people to wise up to the errors of those with alterior motives. To bad it took over 2 years for that to happen. If you are truly an EC, I say fuck you, go to Bulgaria or Egypt and let them have their way with you. But I hear you, understand your concerns. I share them and the damage that has been done. I belive that the vetting process has been improved, even if some of the damage done so far is not repairable. It is the best I can hope for at this point.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Look I understand that early on, mistakes were made. Many people I personally know have said so. Those mistakes cannot be undone.

Exact same phrases used in Nuremburg to justify what we much later called the holocaust. It was only a mistake. They did not know. They did not realize.

One of the lessons from the Zimbardo famous study was that many will blindly do as they are told even if they knew it was killing someone. Rather than be a decent person and stop killing another, well, it was only a mistake.

TheMercenary belittles felony crimes into a mistake. A mistake as so many Germans said when confronted with evidence called the holocaust. Only a mistake when enemies of America (called the George Jr administration) 'make a mistake' to impose a political (and religious) agenda on all others. After all, that is the same reasons that justified National Socialism. Had TheMercenary called them ‘anti-American dumb’ or extremists, then it is an honest attempt to explain such crimes. These were not mistakes. Good people don’t make these mistakes. Extremist dumb followers of extremists may blindly make such mistakes for two years? Two years? TheMercenary demonstrates what happens when the keys to an asylum are given to the inmates. TheMercenary demonstrates what happens when political agendas rather than intelligence justifies actions.

When did they 'realize' it was a mistake? When threatened with prosecution.

Those who are extremists must justify everything by a political agenda. When caught - as Germans in Nuremburg – only then it is called a mistake. For two years wacko extremist Americans (ie Cheney) continued to make the same mistakes? Only when criminal minds know no difference between right and wrong. It was only a mistake when one was driving 120 MPH down the highway and killed 35? Of course. It was only a mistake.

Appreciate the attitude of those who promote and defend the George Jr administation. it was only a mistake - the tens of millions whose lives have been destroyed. Had George Jr done this same thing as the President of Iraq, he would have been hanged just like Saddam - and not for a mistake.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla... bla, bla. Bla, bla, bla bla...

TheMercenary belittles felony crimes into a mistake.

What felonies? Who has belittles? Please you must try to be more clear in your arguments. Connecting loosely associated subjects is a sign of a serious illness. Where do you cut and paste your conspiracy notions from?

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

What felonies? Who has belittles? Please you must try to be more clear in your arguments.

Torture is not a crime? International kidnapping (extraordinary rendition) is not a crime? Imprisoning people for years without judicial review is acceptable? Of course it is - to TheMercenary. Supreme Court keeps ruling these are crimes. But these crimes are so contemptible and so anti-American as to not even require the Supreme Court to remind us.

Scary is that TheMercenary considers these only a mistake using the same phrases by defendant in Nuremburg.

Remember - only people who can be trusted to judge what is good and evil are the extremists. And nobody expected a Spanish Inquisition - a specific reference that what TheMercenary calls only a mistake. For two years they did not realize it was only a mistake? Actions justified by political agendas are that dangerous. The entire "Mission Accomplished" is a perfect example human perversion justified by a 'political agenda'. Worse, we who are not anointed as righteous extremists cannot be trusted to know what is right.

Clearly we are so untrustworthy as to not see Guantanamo for what it really is. And we condemned the Soviets for their gulags.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

They still have every claim to be protected under Habeas Corpus and the Geneva Convention.

GC, Yes... HC, no. HC is not covered in the GC.

[piercehawkeye45]

Just because it isn't in the Geneva Convention doens't mean that we should just not bother with it. We should setting a standard to the rest of the world saying that we give everyone a fair trial.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Just because it isn't in the Geneva Convention doens't mean that we should just not bother with it. We should setting a standard to the rest of the world saying that we give everyone a fair trial.

Ummmm.... no. That is what the GC is for. To set a standard by which everyone can agree on. Not more, not a projection of our Consitutional Rights afforded to us as US citizens to non-citizens. Ain't happening. We have made huge errors, don't get me wrong. I have friends who were at the Abu Ghraib prison immediately after the blow out. It was not pretty. As a soldier at the time I was not in a position to judge. Now, based on all we know, not enough of the top brass hung by their balls. History will be the judge. I have friend who to this day are in the active service of a number of agencies in the government. They do good work. They do it to the best of their abilities.

[Happy Monkey]

The Constitution doesn't give rights to US citizens; it restricts the authority of the US government. The only thing that gives them wiggle room on Guantanimo is that they're pretending that Guantanimo isn't under US jurisdiction.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

The Constitution doesn't give rights to US citizens; it restricts the authority of the US government. The only thing that gives them wiggle room on Guantanimo is that they're pretending that Guantanimo isn't under US jurisdiction.

The only thing giving them wiggle room is that the detainees are NOT US citizens.

[Happy Monkey]

Wrong. A foreign national in a US court gets full protections.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Wrong. A foreign national in a US court gets full protections.

Wrong. They are not in a US court. A military tribual has a different set of rules.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Wrong. They are not in a US court. A military tribual has a different set of rules.

Exactly. And the US court abdicated responsibility to the tribunal based on the idea that Guantanimo was not US territory.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If the Cubans threw a couple bombs over the fence I bet they'd be singing a different tune.