Divorce

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Follow the attorney's advice to every letter and everything else will work itself out. Don't take any chances Deuce.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by yesman065

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is that to me or to Deuce?

[yesman065]

No, not at all. She may be a wonderful woman, but as one who has already dealt with this, he must protect himself first.

[DanaC]

First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.

A) This isn't about her being a villain, this is about her being one party in a legal battle. Deuce is the other party.
B) We do not know her, and we only know what Deuce has posted, but the fact is Deuce has posted and we, the Cellar community have responded with our best intentioned advice.
C) Divorce is messy. Even the most civilised and rational people can become nasty when future happiness, finances, and access to the children are at stake.
D) If one party has engaged legal assistance, the other party can only effectively protect themselves by doing the same (unless they have the experience, knowledge and resources to represent themselves effectively....most people in the midst of an emotionally tumultuous divorce do not qualify for that).
E) See B. Deuce is a member of our community, his wife is not. Therefore our advice is to Deuce. This doesn't mean we wish his wife ill, or seek to demonize her....we simply want this to go as smoothly as possible for Deuce and are offering him advice in good conscience. Most of the people posting have either been through a similar situation, or have been there for friends who have.

The advice I have offered is the same advice I gave my friend when he went though his divorce. I gave similar advice to another friend whose husband was divorcing her and who was doing an excellent job of assassinating her character and making her look like an unfit mother, whilst to her face he appeared quite reasonable. I repeat....divorce is nasty. People do things and act in ways they would never do under any other circumstances. Doesn't make 'em bad people, does make them potentially dangerous to the wellbeing and future happiness of the person they are divorcing.

[kgg]

You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong. I think the support he is receiving is good because everyone needs a support group when something like this happens. But the advise could be adding contempt where there may not otherwise be any. They should both be given the benefit of fairness. Just because she isn't a member of the Cellar Community doesn't mean we should be telling him to "pack her bags and put them at the end of the driveway". We also don't know that she is bashing him. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I hope that things work out well for the both of them.

[DanaC]

You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.

This is not about good and bad. Put those concepts out of your head now, if you want to be of any use whatsoever in advising anybody in this situation. Divorce involves one of the most complicated emotional landscapes anyone is ever likely to find themselves wandering around in. This is not about how good or bad Deuce's wife is, it's about him engaging in a necessary act of self-preservation.

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong.

What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process? Contrary to the entire trend of events as brought to the Cellar by Deuce intermittently over many weeks?

That is your advice to a man who is having to hold it together, clearly still loves the woman and is therefore in the extremely vulnerable position of having to defend himself against potential economic attack, and the possible limitations of access to his children, whilst his reputation is (if her accusations are untrue) besmirched to the point of permanently scarring his record.

Friend, I do not wish to sound arrogant, and I do not dismiss the possibility that she just wants to talk...but you are giving very bad advice. Even if she does truly, want to talk. It has been made very clear by her actions that this is happening. To 'go after her' at this point would be a dangerous denial of what is happening.

There will likely come a time, in the very near future, when enough has been nailed down that the lawyers will advise that some contact is made. But there are stages to go through. The stakes are high enough, why make it any harder on himself? Right now, when it's about as raw as it is ever going to get, let a third party deal with it.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by DucksNuts

Deuce, I have been reading your posts and havent commented, because I am on the other end of this trip. I have just served my ex....

I wish you would.

I know you are not my wife. I know you cannot speak for her. I know that. I know that.

Still...

Part of me wants to hear from her, even if it is through you. I know that is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous to want to understand, and I do want to understand. I don't think it is understandable.

Everything is so surreal. I can feel my tongue heavy in my mouth. Tears spilling down my cheeks--where did those come from? Navigating this mirror world, by braille, where all my instincts are backwards, where all my actions are unintended and all my intentions are stillborn, inert.

What is the lesson here? What is to be learned? What are the mistakes I'm suffering from and should be avoided in the future? Where is the profit from our good fortune and hard work?

What of the future, what will happen? What about our past? How did I get here?

[DucksNuts]

When I first made the break with my ex, I had a very long talk with a *metro* male friend of mine, who was shattered when his gf of 7 years up and left him without a backward glance.

My ex, was going through this hellish emotional roller coaster. He couldnt believe this was happening to him and that it was over, I couldnt believe he didnt see it coming....things had been bad for months.

He couldnt let go, wouldnt let go. He begged, black mailed, gave me ultimatums and threats. The more he pushed, the more reserved and pragmatic I got. I didnt want to fight for what we *had* and couldnt see a point, he just couldnt get that.

Anyways, I commented to my friend about this roller coaster and he said he had the same reaction.

We *decided* that it was just that us girls (in this instance) had reconciled with ourselves, boxed everything up emotionally and shut that door....before we had broken the news to our male partners. So essentially, we had it all tidied up and knew it was over before our partners knew what was about to hit them.

I've been on the other side of that fence, been chewed up, spat out and wondered where the fuck that came from?

Again, my bf at the time had worked through everything within himself and he was more than ready to move on, then he hit me with the "its over, I dont love you anymore".

The only time I have seen the line blurred was in a particularly volatile relationship (not physically, emotionally), where we would break up at the drop of a hat, and then one or both of us would do whatever necessary for us to get back together.

Your questions I cant answer and most of them probably dont have an answer at all.

All I can tell you is that time does heal and you need to go through what you are going through.

DONT look for *mistakes* that you made, my ex made none.

The future? no one can predict what will happen, but you will get through it, you have too many wonderful friends and support here not too.

Just take one day at a time luv, thats all you can do.

[Deuce]

Thank you.

[Deuce]

sleepy now. and sad, melancholy. gonna read, then sleep.

Let's talk tomorrow.

[DucksNuts]

I'm sorry, none of that was probably useful.

As you said, I cant speak for your wife.

I can look at her actions and make assumptions about them, but you know her better than any of us.

I know you want to hear from her and for her to explain what is happening....but...she may not be able too, she may be working things through herself.

Its the not knowing or being able to *fix* it...or getting the chance to fix it, that is probably eating you up....but (and again, you would know better than I), I gather she wouldnt be putting you through this on a whim....it sounds like she has done the *reconciling*.

Rest assured, if she wants things to change, she WONT just make one phone call and then go "oh well, he didnt answer, it was probably a bad idea anyway" and if she does do something like that....you dont want to be a part of it.

I'm sorry we cant make the hurt any less

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by kgg

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by DanaC

What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process?...

I'm pretty sure that what kgg meant was that the advice she sees being given by others here is to "go after her," meaning "attack her before she attacks you." Not to try to reconcile with her.

But the problem is, fairness is only applicable when you know both parties. It would be nice if Deuce could step back from the recent events and say, "Oh well, let's try to make the best of a bad situation," but he has already indicated he's not in an emotional position to do that. Terms of the divorce aside, he has to stop being vulnerable before he can begin to appropriately react in any way. Part of that means severing the emotional ties with his wife. If that means demonizing her a bit before he can successfully move back to center, then that's what it means. 'I'll let you two work it out on your own, I hope all the best for you' is lukewarm at best, not really support at all. It is what he will receive from all his family and friends who do know the both of them. Sometimes people need stronger encouragement than that to get past things, before they can view them with a better, healthier perspective.

[DanaC]

I'm pretty sure that what kgg meant was that the advice she sees being given by others here is to "go after her," meaning "attack her before she attacks you." Not to try to reconcile with her.

Ahh..thanks. I see that. I had misunderstood.

Terms of the divorce aside, he has to stop being vulnerable before he can begin to appropriately react in any way. Part of that means severing the emotional ties with his wife. If that means demonizing her a bit before he can successfully move back to center, then that's what it means. ... Sometimes people need stronger encouragement than that to get past things, before they can view them with a better, healthier perspective.

I think you've really got a good point there. The search for understanding, can take place some indefinate time in the future, right now, a little self-protection and enough anger to stop from turning it in on himself, will do Deuce a lot more good I think in the short term.

Sorry to talk about you in the third person there Deuce :P

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Sorry to talk about you in the third person there Deuce :P

Not at all. I am rapt. Please continue.

A couple of thoughts...

I am being very open here, especially about the hurt. I am opening my heart to everyone here. I fully expect my wife is reading these posts as well.

Some number of posts back, I forget where.... I do not demonize her. That is my vulnerability talking. I am not the Saddam Hussein I'm portrayed as in documents any more than she is Cruella De Vil. Please. Exaggerated hyperbolic histrionics is no substitute for reasoning together.

Some more of what the world looks like from my perspective:

I love my wife.

I love our son.

I believe, devoutly, that the greatest gift I can give my son is to love his mother. It is easy to see how those dovetail neatly together for me.

Loving her does not depend on living together though. The living arrangements are flexible. And, if she does not love me, and or does not live with me, that doesn't mean that we, together, cannot still do well by our son. And that, doing what is best for our son, is my primary consideration.

Defining what is best, and how to make that happen is not so easy. Let me back up a little bit. I think, no, I **KNOW** the best scenario is one in which father and mother are husband and wife and love each other and live together and both love the child and live with the child. That is clear to me. Unfortunately, my situation is missing a few of those elements, so finding the best scenario that is realistically possible is my quest now.

Shit. One of the biggest problems is that we're off on the wrong foot. You've all correctly observed that I have yielded the initiative, that we're in court now, and that her allegations have put me in a very unfavorable light. They have knocked me on my heels. I am in the position now of having to take care of myself *first* if I am to be in any position later to do the best for my son.

This is an unfamiliar situation for me. I have never thought of myself first. I have always thought of my wife and family first. Now it is different. It is very different. You know how the airline emergency drill instructs you to put the oxygen mask over your own face first before you try to render assistance to your child right next to you, well, I have to do it like that. We're both suffering, but if I am incapacitated, for whatever reason, I will be of no use to him. So, me first, then him.

That is the framework upon which hangs advice to me from many here and many in person that says "take care of yourself", "protect yourself", "harden yourself toward her", "counterattack her". These are on a continuum, and while they're all on the right track, I have limits as to what I am willing to do in the name of "taking care of myself" or "protecting myself".

I am unaccustomed to putting myself ahead of my wife or my children. I see the need, in the service of my greater goal. I understand and am willing to act accordingly, but like any new behavior, and in a new situation, I'm struggling with the learning curve, in addition to the burden of very difficult emotional circumstances.

But I am strong, and I am smart, and I am devoted to them. I am completely motivated to succeed, or die trying.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Deuce

I love our son.

I believe, devoutly, that the greatest gift I can give my son is to love his mother. It is easy to see how those dovetail neatly together for me.

Absolutely, but she has decided that she no longer wants to be your wife. I'm sorry and I know thats hard to see, but that is her choice.

Originally Posted by Deuce

~her allegations have put me in a very unfavorable light. They have knocked me on my heels. I am in the position now of having to take care of myself *first* if I am to be in any position later to do the best for my son. We're both suffering, but if I am incapacitated, for whatever reason, I will be of no use to him. So, me first, then him.

Yes you ALL are suffering, but the position you are now in, a very defensive one, was premeditated and decided upon by her - SHE has chosen this path for all of you. SHE has forced you to react accordingly. SHE has given you no choice. SHE has created this path. SHE has served you with the restraining order. SHE has served you with all the papers - SHE has affected your ability to see or talk to any of your children. SHE has forced you out of your home. SHE has chosen this path - SHE has given you no option other than to defend yourself, clear your name and rebuild your life. Then and only then can you again be the best father you can be to your son.

Originally Posted by Deuce

I am unaccustomed to putting myself ahead of my wife or my children. I see the need, in the service of my greater goal. I understand and am willing to act accordingly, but like any new behavior, and in a new situation, I'm struggling with the learning curve, in addition to the burden of very difficult emotional circumstances.

All normal, all good. You are on the right path - hang in there - we are here for you.