Collective Responsibility -v- Individual Responsibility. - Page 6

Radar · 05-20-2008, 07:56 PM

The term "we" applies all people within the group being described including the person making the description.

For instance the use of the phrase "We" here:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

classicman · 05-20-2008, 08:02 PM

I love how you change the rules of interpretation to suit your own needs/wants/points...whatever.

Radar · 05-20-2008, 08:07 PM

By all means show me where I've changed anything.

Radar · 05-20-2008, 08:14 PM

Looking back on the sentence in question, I can see how it could be confusing. I wrote it quickly. Perhaps by rephrasing the sentence and adding some punctuation, I can eliminate any confusion with regard to my "original intent".

The pledge was more than just what David had originally intended though. It became a litmus test for members. It held people to a higher standard and laid out expectations. This way if someone runs as a Libertarian and says "We need to kill babies to make soilent green", the members of the Libertarian Party can kick them out of the party and say the views of the candidate don't mesh with libertarian philosophy or those of other party members.

classicman · 05-20-2008, 08:15 PM

It is not worth the time nor the effort. Suffice it to say that your "interpretation of one thing is "to the letter" and of others, you define what is implied by the text.

Radar · 05-20-2008, 08:17 PM

Give me a break man. The Constitution was written by a room full of guys over the period of months where each word and punctuation mark were scrutinized to the point of physical fights. This can and should be taken to the letter.

I wrote it in 10 seconds while I was thinking of it. This should be taken as I meant it.

classicman · 05-20-2008, 08:36 PM

whatever - I stand by what I said already - not worth a fihgt nor a bunch of negativity -

peace.

TheMercenary · 05-23-2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

whatever - I stand by what I said already - not worth a fihgt nor a bunch of negativity -

peace.

Come on man! poke him with the stick! It fun to watch his head explode!

Aliantha · 05-21-2008, 05:32 PM

There should be more like us.

DanaC · 05-23-2008, 02:45 AM

*Grins* I just received a letter from the Group Whip.

A written warning. lol. Either they couldn't throw the book at me without also throwing at the other councillor who rebelled (historically a friend of theirs and our longest serving councillor).....or, they know they're on very thin ice with the deal they struck and daren't do anything which would provoke me into contesting it through region. I did make it clear to the whip that if the whip was withdrawn I would appeal it. Alternatively they realise that any attempt to suspend us from the group would undoubtedly find its way into the local press (not via me) and may damage them.

Either way.....good result for my colleague and I.

DanaC · 05-23-2008, 07:54 AM

Is there anything more visually satisfying than an exploding head?

TheMercenary · 05-23-2008, 08:05 AM

Rarely.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-31-2008, 12:23 AM

I'd rather see naked people than exploding heads.

classicman · 05-31-2008, 07:28 PM

...especially if they are women

TheMercenary · 05-31-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

...especially if they are women

Well of course.

05-20-2008, 07:56 PM	#1
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	The term "we" applies all people within the group being described including the person making the description. For instance the use of the phrase "We" here: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

05-20-2008, 08:02 PM	#2
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	I love how you change the rules of interpretation to suit your own needs/wants/points...whatever. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

05-20-2008, 08:07 PM	#3
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	By all means show me where I've changed anything. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

05-20-2008, 08:14 PM	#4
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Looking back on the sentence in question, I can see how it could be confusing. I wrote it quickly. Perhaps by rephrasing the sentence and adding some punctuation, I can eliminate any confusion with regard to my "original intent". The pledge was more than just what David had originally intended though. It became a litmus test for members. It held people to a higher standard and laid out expectations. This way if someone runs as a Libertarian and says "We need to kill babies to make soilent green", the members of the Libertarian Party can kick them out of the party and say the views of the candidate don't mesh with libertarian philosophy or those of other party members. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

05-20-2008, 08:15 PM	#5
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	It is not worth the time nor the effort. Suffice it to say that your "interpretation of one thing is "to the letter" and of others, you define what is implied by the text. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

05-20-2008, 08:17 PM	#6
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Give me a break man. The Constitution was written by a room full of guys over the period of months where each word and punctuation mark were scrutinized to the point of physical fights. This can and should be taken to the letter. I wrote it in 10 seconds while I was thinking of it. This should be taken as I meant it. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

05-20-2008, 08:36 PM	#7
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	whatever - I stand by what I said already - not worth a fihgt nor a bunch of negativity - peace. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

05-21-2008, 05:32 PM	#9
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	There should be more like us. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-23-2008, 02:45 AM	#10
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Grins I just received a letter from the Group Whip. A written warning. lol. Either they couldn't throw the book at me without also throwing at the other councillor who rebelled (historically a friend of theirs and our longest serving councillor).....or, they know they're on very thin ice with the deal they struck and daren't do anything which would provoke me into contesting it through region. I did make it clear to the whip that if the whip was withdrawn I would appeal it. Alternatively they realise that any attempt to suspend us from the group would undoubtedly find its way into the local press (not via me) and may damage them. Either way.....good result for my colleague and I.

05-23-2008, 07:54 AM	#11
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Is there anything more visually satisfying than an exploding head?

05-23-2008, 08:05 AM	#12
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Rarely. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

05-31-2008, 12:23 AM	#13
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I'd rather see naked people than exploding heads. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-31-2008, 07:28 PM	#14
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	...especially if they are women __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

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