Immigration Enforcement Un-American?

[TheMercenary]

I think that is an over charaterization of society at large. Pockets of racism exist everywhere in the world and everywhere in the US, no region or country is immune. It does not excuse it, but let's not generalize that it motivates much of our immigration policy or need for control.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think that is an over charaterization of society at large. Pockets of racism exist everywhere in the world and everywhere in the US, no region or country is immune. It does not excuse it, but let's not generalize that it motivates much of our immigration policy or need for control.

No, it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that racism influences who we are just like it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that materialism influences us. Don't confuse racism with discrimination because they are not the same.

Racism is a social doctrine, not an action. Its similar to materalism (hence the -ism in both words). We all have materalistic influences because we were raised in a materalistic society and we, even people of color, all have racist influnces because we were raised in a racist society.

Does this mean you mean you are basing your views on race? No. I am stating that because of we are raised in a racist society it is impossible to seperate race from this issue.

Originally Posted by lookout123

While there are some obviously prejudiced idiots in the world that isn't what this is about.

Racism is not just prejudice idiots. Racism is anything that has to deal with putting one "race" of people above another. This can mean joining the KKK, this can mean going out of your way to help people of color, or it could mean that you have inital racist thought that you autmoatically discard and never act upon. Some types of racism are extremely bad and some are ones we can never rid from ourselves.

So, since we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts we can conclude that we are subconciously racist to a point, even if we never act upon it. And since we are subconciously racist, that can influence our views on who is a productive member of society or not without us knowing.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Anyone who wants to come be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. Those that didn't follow the process can get out. It is as simple as that. Skin color is irrelevant.

Yes, I thought I made that clear when I used Chinese engineers as an example. The deciding factor is the combination of illegal immigrants and the view of being non-productive members of society. My point is that race influences, even subtley, who we view as being productive members of society so it can not be discarded. And please don't take that last statement and make a hyperbole, that is not my intention.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Any foreigner that goes through the proper paperwork should be admitted in turn, without anyone guessing whether they will become a productive citizen or not.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

No, it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that racism influences who we are just like it would not be an overgeneralizaton to state that materialism influences us. Don't confuse racism with discrimination because they are not the same.

Racism is a social doctrine, not an action. Its similar to materalism (hence the -ism in both words). We all have materalistic influences because we were raised in a materalistic society and we, even people of color, all have racist influnces because we were raised in a racist society.

Does this mean you mean you are basing your views on race? No. I am stating that because of we are raised in a racist society it is impossible to seperate race from this issue.


Racism is not just prejudice idiots. Racism is anything that has to deal with putting one "race" of people above another. This can mean joining the KKK, this can mean going out of your way to help people of color, or it could mean that you have inital racist thought that you autmoatically discard and never act upon. Some types of racism are extremely bad and some are ones we can never rid from ourselves.

So, since we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts we can conclude that we are subconciously racist to a point, even if we never act upon it. And since we are subconciously racist, that can influence our views on who is a productive member of society or not without us knowing.

Much of what you have stated may be true in a sociology class. In reality I don't think that most people think that way, nor could you generalize about society at large. There are some who are racist regardless of color and nothing is going to change the majority who think like that. It is my opinion that the majority of people don't think or function in society within a racist framework.

Further you have stated that "we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts" and I think you would have a difficult time proving that notion. So I would have to reject that notion as being your opinion because I disagree.

[lookout123]

While there are some obviously prejudiced idiots in the world that isn't what this is about.

Anyone who wants to come be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. Those that didn't follow the process can get out. It is as simple as that. Skin color is irrelevant.

[TheMercenary]

I can't agree more. I will say that I think we need to look at some cases where people are making a significant contribution to society and look at those on a case by case basis. But jumping the border and dropping a baby needs to stop.

[lookout123]

I'm all in favor of easing the restrictions, making the process easier, and opening up the country to anyone who will follow the damn legal process. At the same time the country needs to adopt the e-verify system, yank the license from any business caught knowingly employing illegals, and toss any illegal caught within the borders.

Make breaking the law more painful than following the law and surprise surprise people will probably follow it.

[lookout123]

I didn't say we get to judge whether they will be or not. I said anyone who wants to be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. I want our immigration process to be so open and easy that only criminals will attempt to enter illegally.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I didn't say we get to judge whether they will be or not. I said anyone who wants to be a productive member of our society and follows the legal process should be welcomed with open arms. I want our immigration process to be so open and easy that only criminals will attempt to enter illegally.

I agree with you and I didn't mean that in a sense that we get to judge what groups are allowed in or not. I am saying that groups that are seen as unproductive are negatively judged by large groups of society. That in no way should determine who we allow in our not and I wasn't trying to accuse you of saying that we should.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It is my opinion that the majority of people don't think or function in society within a racist framework.

Further you have stated that "we all, or vast majority, have instinctual internal racist thoughts" and I think you would have a difficult time proving that notion. So I would have to reject that notion as being your opinion because I disagree.

It would be hard to prove or disprove my argument because we are looking at what individuals initally think, not do. I still do support my theory because of two big factors.

One, I feel my own subconcious racist thoughts and everyone that I've talked to (many different backgrounds) feel it as well. That even includes blacks and other people of color.

I also notice that unless a person of color is raised in a enviornment with constant contact with whites, they tend to stick to people of their own race or other people of color instead of whites.

Those two really tell me something is up.

[classicman]

Lemme see if I get what you are saying here. You have these initial thoughts/opinions based upon a persons color/creed or whatever and you have issues with that.
What about animals? Do you have those same initial impressions of them? Like a hawk versus a robin, or a squirrel versus a skunk.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

Lemme see if I get what you are saying here. You have these initial thoughts/opinions based upon a persons color/creed or whatever and you have issues with that.
What about animals? Do you have those same initial impressions of them? Like a hawk versus a robin, or a squirrel versus a skunk.

What are you talking about? What is my issue?

My entire point is that you cannot completely seperate race and immigration because of subconcious prejudice.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

..because of subconcious prejudice.

How do you substantiate that this exists?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

How do you substantiate that this exists?

I already told you my two reasons and that it is impossible to prove or disprove since they are personal.

Originally Posted by classicman

ok, I think I got you, so what you are saying is that because a person has subconscious thoughts, then they may be a racist or be predisposed to racist tendencies.

I would just stick with racial tendencies because throwing in racist is an entire discussion altogether. But yes, if a person has subconcious racist thoughts, they may be predisposed to racist tendencies without knowing it. That is why I argue it is impossible to seperate race from immigration issues because we are constantly judging immigration groups based on race.

[classicman]

ok, I think I got you, so what you are saying is that because a person has subconscious thoughts, then they may be a racist or be predisposed to racist tendencies.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What are you talking about? What is my issue?

My entire point is that you cannot completely seperate race and immigration because of subconcious prejudice.

When approaching, or are being approached by, a person, I note size, sex, hair, dress, color, body language, etc.

If I know them, I immediately search my memory for previous behavior by that person... friend or foe, like or dislike, etc.

In the case of a stranger I search my memory for previous experiences with people with similar appearance.
Bigger would be more of a threat than smaller, male would be more of a threat than female(except in court),
someone in rags would be more of a threat than in a suit, and so on.

Of course there's no guarantee the well dressed little woman won't kill me, but I have to make a judgment on past experience.
I suppose second hand experience via the media or stories from peers would be in my database too.
I guess you're calling that prejudice, but I have to rely on what I've got.