Woman Arrested at Fahrenheit 9/11 Showing... - Page 6

Undertoad · 07-08-2004, 12:58 PM

Radar, it's practically unthinkable that the theater and its parking lot are owned by different people. Still standing?

Beestie · 07-08-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot_pastrami

So far you have offered no meaningful argument to support that assertion. And you've ignored a number of replies which nullify your assertions. Wishing something doesn't make it so.

What I hear Radar saying is that if a propery owner, a person leasing property (inherits all rights of the owner not excluded in lease agreement) or a law enforcement officer instructs a person to vacate a property, that person is not required to vacate as long as they keep running their mouth.

"Well, officer/owner/lessor, what if I agree to only hand out 9,999 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,998 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,997 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,996 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,995 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,994 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,993 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
"9,992 flyers?"
"No, get off my land."
...
you get the picture. It would serve Radar right if SpongeBobSquarePants ever landed on his front porch with 10,000 Crusty Crab flyers

lumberjim · 07-08-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Radar, I think what Troubleshooter meant by degree is, how long can they try to "work something out" before they're just stalling and violating your property rights?

You seem ok with a few minutes. So how about an hour? Can they continue to stand there "discussing" it with you for an hour without falling into the category of "refusing to leave?" How about 4 hours? How long before they ARE violating your property rights?

i think they have until the cops get there to scram, yes?

Happy Monkey · 07-08-2004, 01:04 PM

It's also unlikely, in a strip mall context, that the theater is leasing the parking lot, which is probably shared by all of the mall stores.

Undertoad · 07-08-2004, 01:05 PM

We're saying the same thing there, although the rights of the lessee are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Happy Monkey · 07-08-2004, 01:12 PM

Here's a story which seems more cut and dry.

Radar · 07-08-2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

i think they have until the cops get there to scram, yes?

Good point. If you finally refuse to talk to them and call the cops and they get off your property before the cops arrive, you have no basis for a complaint.

They tried to discuss it with you and you refused to yield so they left your property. You demanded they leave, and they complied. If they didn't do it quick enough for your satisfaction you should take steps to keep the next one from gaining access to your property in the first place, although this might hamper your ability to conduct public business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It's also unlikely, in a strip mall context, that the theater is leasing the parking lot, which is probably shared by all of the mall stores.

Very true and extremely likely. The theater manager only has the right to kick people out of the theater, but if the theater is in a mall, the manager has no authority to kick anyone out of the parking lot because he's not the sole store that uses it. Perhaps this person wants to do some shopping after they leave the theater. I'm sure the other businesses wouldn't be happy about losing business because the manager of the theater decided to be an asshole.

Beestie · 07-08-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

the rights of the lessee are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Not really. Legally, the lessee steps into the shoes of the owner except where specifically excluded in the lease document. Conversely, whatever rights the lessor has specifically not reserved for itself are assumed to belong to the lessee. Therefore, the mall owner has no right to kick someone out of the theatre (unless, of course, they were preventing property damage or something like that). In my opinion, the mall owner could not have asked Ms. Frank to vacate the theatre but could have asked her to vacate the mall's common areas including the parking lot. A law enforcement officer has a duty to enforce the right(s) of the owner and/or the lessee if those rights are being violated.

Happy Monkey · 07-08-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

In my opinion, the mall owner could not have asked Ms. Frank to vacate the theatre but could have asked her to vacate the mall's common areas including the parking lot.

And conversely, the theater owner can ask someone to leave the theater, but not the parking lot.

Clodfobble · 07-08-2004, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Good point. If you finally refuse to talk to them and call the cops and they get off your property before the cops arrive, you have no basis for a complaint

SOOOO... Since she didn't manage to get off the property before the cops arrived, (as the cops clearly got to her and were able to arrest her,) I guess this means she was in the wrong then. Should have left before the cops got there.

Radar · 07-08-2004, 01:49 PM

She did manage to get off the property. She was in the mall parking lot which is not part of the theater and the theater manager has no authority over the parking lot. She was near her car and was CALLED BACK by the police.

This is like the police saying, "We weren't here to see you speeding, but we have it on good authority you were speeding a few hours ago, so here's a ticket."

wolf · 07-08-2004, 01:54 PM

If a complaint is made and charges will be filed, the perpetrator doesn't have to be present at the time of the police interview of the victim and/or complainant.

Undertoad · 07-08-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

She did manage to get off the property. She was in the mall parking lot

...which, once again, is part of the same "property".

Radar · 07-08-2004, 02:09 PM

...which is NOT part of the same property, because it is the MALL property and NOT the theater property. The theater owner has NO AUTHORITY to tell people to leave the MALL parking lot.

Quote:

If a complaint is made and charges will be filed, the perpetrator doesn't have to be present at the time of the police interview of the victim and/or complainant.

The theater manager had no basis to make a complaint because no crime had been committed and nobody's rights had been violated.

I can make a complaint that the president stole my cat, but will he be arrested for it? And if I try to file a complaint that someone jay walked 2 days ago and I saw it, will they be arrested? I don't think so.

hot_pastrami · 07-08-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

I can make a complaint that the president stole my cat, but will he be arrested for it? And if I try to file a complaint that someone jay walked 2 days ago and I saw it, will they be arrested? I don't think so.

True, but if you make a complaint that a person entered your home, harrassed your house guests and then refused to leave, and the police found them still standing in your driveway when thay arrived, they would at least question the perp. And if the person freely admitted to refusing to leave your property when asked, as this woman did, they'd be cited. This is true even if you live in an apartment building with a shared parking lot, because the illegal action happened on your property, regardless of where the person is standing when the police arrive.

I really don't see the usefulness of introducing jaywalking and cat-stealing metaphors. What does that have to do with this? Those would be completely different situations, which have no bearing on this one.

And does it ever say that this woman was arrested? All I see is that she was cited. Cited and arrested are NOT the same thing.

07-08-2004, 01:04 PM	#79
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	It's also unlikely, in a strip mall context, that the theater is leasing the parking lot, which is probably shared by all of the mall stores. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-08-2004, 01:12 PM	#81
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Here's a story which seems more cut and dry. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-08-2004, 01:49 PM	#86
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	She did manage to get off the property. She was in the mall parking lot which is not part of the theater and the theater manager has no authority over the parking lot. She was near her car and was CALLED BACK by the police. This is like the police saying, "We weren't here to see you speeding, but we have it on good authority you were speeding a few hours ago, so here's a ticket." __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

07-08-2004, 01:54 PM	#87
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	If a complaint is made and charges will be filed, the perpetrator doesn't have to be present at the time of the police interview of the victim and/or complainant. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-08-2004, 12:58 PM	#76
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Radar, it's practically unthinkable that the theater and its parking lot are owned by different people. Still standing?

07-08-2004, 01:05 PM	#80
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	We're saying the same thing there, although the rights of the lessee are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

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